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Then you better start fearing Mr. Shane. We'll see how long you sick puppies last...Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock...

oh and by the way the wall works great (lol) I think you should keep it. or return it for you money back since you need the money.

The bottom line is Mac Mead you have two choices:

1. Repent and close your club.

or:

2. Drown in a pool of debt and let God deal with you.

I would hate to see anyone go to hell. Its my hope that you all will just turn away from your sin and turn toward God. To love God is to obey God. A swinger-Christian is an oxy-moron. Mac if you think you can own a swingers club and make it to heaven then your dead wrong, and I mean spiritually dead. You cannot continually live in sin and expect anything of the father.

Lev 20:10
"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

there are two types of death the bible describes:
1. death on earth-temporary
2. spiritual death- Eternal (Hell)

You can't make it into heaven as an unrepeated swinger. Period. The truth is hard to swallow but it stands as true.
To repent is not to say "sorry my bad" and then do it again and again!
repent means to turn away from your sin.

I will be out there like it or not warning everyone of the hell fire and there is no man in this world that will stop me. I fear no man only my Father God.

Isa 8:12-13
"Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread."

-Shane-
shane@ravenamarillo.com


Mr. Operator (Mac Oren Mead) is just mad because he's going broke! And yea mac we all believe theres people watching the lot...(SIKE!)...Thats why you tried to fight someone right? lol

Got another point to make!

The post early about KKK....Grisham stated that by ignoring the second commandment they break the first, well Grisham the same goes for YOU! LOVE thy neighbor as thyself.

Love no matter their beliefs, that's how Jesus lived. Im really glad that you use signs to show your judgement on others.

I know that this isn't gonna get us anywhere, because Grisham will not listen unless he agrees with what is said but i can't stand it any longer!

I will not argue scriputer, anyone can twist the bible to support or conflict what they believe. We see that everyday.

The only thing i have to offer is MY OPINION so here it goes.....

The really sad part about all this is that people will be running away from God because of the actions that is going on here. I myself have been treated very badly by some very so called christian people. That is not the way God would want anyone to act! We are no longer under the law, we are suppose to live by LOVE. Love is not judgement and i have tried to read up on all that Grisham has done, and MY OPINION is that he is judging others. We all will stand before God and be judged and that includes Grisham. So would you Grisham tell HIM that all you have done (which includes lying and harassment) is all in HIS name and because HE told you too. HMMMM well i have a hard time believing that HE would agree with you about that and give ya that pat on the back with a my good servant that you are looking for. And what do you think HE will say about all the people that you have turned away from HIM because of your actions?? Holding a bull horn screaming at people that they will go to hell is not showing any love. Taking pictures of people and laughing when someone is injuried because of those actions is not showing love. I really do think that you as a christian should be ashamed of yourself!! When people disagree with your beliefs it is your job to LOVE them and pray for them, not to harass and judge. It is HIS job to judge them!!

So that's my point take it or leave it.

Now im gonna go into my prayer closet and i will pray for the people that maybe turned away from God because of your actions, while im there i will also lift you and your followers up to HIM and ask for your eyes to be truely opened.

Have a great day all!

well from reading the post this morning looks like the cult had nothing to do Saturday night again. I wonder why if you want to shine a light on something dark why don't you go witness in front of a crack house. Because you have already shined your light on the "Swingers" and avenue 10

Listened to KGNC Friday and there were a lot of points brought up that contradict a lot of what you claim what your group is. right back to how I feel, you have a agenda that is not Religious or Spiritual it is very political.

I was also told of a tactic that you are doing that is criminal and I hope that it is not true.

Dave,
I met two guys last week who say they remember you in "intimate" detail, and "met" with you during the past year. Would you like to address this before they go to the papers?

Come out, come out, wherever you are.

Protest but you have crossed that line with your idea of intimidation and invading privacy. You will be held accountable for your sheeps actions, if not by mans law ,but by Gods law. I told you I would be there and be watching you and you are as off track as the bloggers and radio personnel said. Why have you not attacked other bigger businesses with much more sin, like lets say the largest retailer in America, and you know who I am talking about, They sale the morning after pill and they have gays and lesbians working at every one, even in management, but you see the thing is, they DONT discriminate and they believe people have rights to live their life like they want, you however do not believe this, you feel you should run others lives to fit you beliefs. Last night one of your group made the mention that swingers are the most violent people you meet, could it possibly be that this is true because the are PUSHED to being defensive because of the actions of you and your group. I know that you will come back with this-- " I am not responsible for their actions" , but you are and everyone knows it. And may I ask where did you get your pastoral training at? It is a legitimate question and no reason you should not answer it!!!!!!!!!!!!

well repent amarillo showed their backside again sat night at the club they like PROTESTING at. For some reason they did not like having a bigger and taller barricade than that little yellow tape. I think it is time to say that Grisham is NOT the only one in the group that likes confrontation. The 2 biggest trouble makers in the group I witnessed and heard about was the big guy with the bull horn and Grisham Jr. Grisham is the leader of this pack rat but these other 2 are going to cause issues one day. By the way Grishams wife is running a close race to being mouthy too. I may not have been outside alot but I was out enough to hear with my own ears -- the two trouble makers harassing and deliberately confronting guest as they arrived and left a private party to the point of almost coming to blows. THIS IS NOT WITNESSING, it IS however harassing and what is with all the pictures of guest and their plates on their cars. You should consider thanking the guys watching the parking lot for you waking up in your bed and not else where, like a hospital. I heard they kept your son and big boy from getting attacked more than once. There is no sense in telling you that this has gone for enough because you have no intentions on stopping till someone gets hurt. You have the right to witness and even LAWFULLY

July 19, 2006

Pray for KKK: They know not what they are doing

My wife and I plan to attend the KKK's Aug. 5 assembly at City Hall.

We want everyone to see the difference between real Christians and the KKK's false Christians.

Jesus said that to love the Lord with all thy heart, soul and mind was the First and great commandment and that the Second, "love thy neighbor as thyself," was "like unto it."

By ignoring the Second Commandment, the KKK breaks the First. They hate minorities and Jews. Jesus was himself a Jew. How can they hate Jews and claim Christ?

We also hope to serve as a light to the KKK and minister to them the truth of Christ. The best way to rid yourself of enemies is to love them into friendship. When I think of the Klan's deluded beliefs, I am reminded of what Jesus said on the cross: "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Amarillo Christians, please join us to gather and pray for the truth to come to the KKK's misguided hearts.

We will be carrying a large sign that says "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do" on one side and "Jesus was a Jew" on the other.

David H. Grisham

Amarillo

Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock... Der Commandant Grisham, Just so you are aware. There were new friends stalking you and your SS Hitler Youth tonight. You were surrounded four times and your little Bozo bunch never knew. They stood within feet of you, just above you and right behind. It's a new game now Jeebus Boy. Actual Trained Special Forces Veterans have arrived in Amarillo by Request. And they are here for the duration. They bring the Wrath you called upon yourself. Each member of this unique squad is a Real Born-Again Christian. Each one is Outraged and Angered by the Ridicule your actions have brought in the name of Jesus Christ. Tonight it all begins and from this point on the situation has seriously changed. Please advise all those around you, it would be best for them to decide if they really want to be around to receive the gifts being wrapped for little Davy. We're done with playtime. The rules have changed Mr. Bully, You're done. Enjoy the time you think you have Jeebus Commander, the Wind is Blowing a Fire your way You Can't Ever put out. Welcome to Amarillo Gentlemen! Enjoy. Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock...

wow ladies and gents we have our very own magnum pi, yepper that right. repent amarillo, raven ministries are going to show up at one of ave 10 performances undercover, hidden cam. lol. last night as we were leavin the building we spotted david grisham and group spying on us. dude do you not have a life. do you realize that can be conciderd stocking. or do we need to start fearing for own safety? why dont you try another approch to get people to come to christ, cause the way you are doing it now isnt working?

Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock... Jeebus Commander Grisham, John Terry summed up your sick, bizzare, twisted ways in a very Stone Cold way. You are slowly starting to annoy and anger many people far and wide. Just face it Jeebus Boy, your funhouse days are numbered. It will be a long road of justice that will harshly expose you as the Zealot Bozo you really are. Can't lie much longer Davy, the light of truth is hunting you down. And it will please thousands to watch you wither, curl-up and fade away into your own demented wasteland. You have become a State and City Joke! And You are Doomed to failure you Self-Righteous, Pretentious Bully!! I cannot wait to watch you squirm!! Tick-Tock,Tick-Tock...

Gee, Grishy...

To scared to tackle John Terry today?

He doesn't like your little cult much either, if you missed it.

V.A. Day,

You know, that is one of the things he has never done to me. He has never called me a "swinger". Which really has suprised Many other things, but never that. I support their cause, and have every since all this started new years last year. It's their way of life and should not be trod upon. While I wouldn't mind attempting what they do, I don't quite think my wife would agree to that. Eh, each to their own. Yeah, Mr. Schwarz has really figured Grishy out and it is a curious question. When will he call Mr. Schwarz a swinger?

Grishy,

Is this kinfolk of yours?

Pastor to Host Halloween Bible-Burning Event ( http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569121,00.h... )

westex 4955

How long do you think it will be before the cult leader calls George Schwarz a swinger?

OK OK, sorry since we are reverting to semantic let me rephrase. show me were it says your interpretation is the way.

Maybe one of your group laughed? Are you the leader of your group or not? the actions of your group reflect on you. By the way you act on here you have no problem with your groups actions, Now here is my guess you know who laughed and you know that you have some responsibility in the fall. But I am also guessing you think you can inflict any abuse you see fit.

How much farther are you willing to go to fulfill your agenda? I for one don't want to see our city in the national news like Waco.

And once again, Grishy is talked about in the Amarillo Independent. I so like that paper, they actually know what they are talking. about

man oh man, how stupid can one be. calling the firemarshall out to the building claming we was not up to code, they came out and inspected the building and found nothing wrong.in fact they thought it looked pretty cool. how stupid that makes you and your groupies look. you only wasted the firemarshalls time. and you call yourself a christian. time is running out for yall, tick tock tick tock.

Grishy,

Ok, on my computer now, the post last night was from my phone. Hard to type on that thing, but on to the discussion...

Ok, Truth of your god? That's laughable because you cannot prove he exists. You have what to prove it? A book. That was written by who? Man? What man? You don't even know that one. You, sir, are the blind one. Walking around in the dark with your eyes closed (because your not allowed to open them) hoping that you have someone leading you. I would prefer to walk around with with my eyes open to use my God given reason and to see what I have been given. I have shown my proof, which I will admit, you agreed to. Though then you had to use your BOOK (not any facts, just words) to attempt to discount my proof. When are you going to learn that you cannot fight fact with opinion?

Oh, and I have all those articles bookmarked if anyone wants to read them and see where he has lied. Grishy, that goes for you too if your memory fails you.

Grishy,

So all those quotes of you from all those articles I made up? Interesting
Anyone want to double check my research and make sure it was Grishy who actually said all that?
Amazing Grishy, you even lie when your own words stare you in the face.

Yep typical bible thumper, get called on facts and run away cause ya can't prove Jack.
Hilarious

Westex 4955,
You have not caught me in any stories. You just make those things up. I have said all I need to say to you. You are blind and refuse to see the truth of God's Word. I pray you repent and come to Christ before it is too late. But I knock the dust off my shoes with you. Perhaps another witness will reach you. Take care of yourself.

VA Day,
I did not make a woman fall. Nor did I laugh.Someone may have laughed in our group or one of the swingers may have (there was one outside at the time)The woman fell because there was freezing drizzle.
It is not my way. It is not my word. I follow and profess God's Word and God's way.It is not any man's way. My guess is you are one of the swingers. Are you?

Grishy,

Hmmm, so you have read Tindal huh? For some reason I don't believe ya. I offered ya a deal, but of course you won't accept it. So I guess I won't be reading your "dung" either. Its bad enough that I had to dig out my old bible, but its a great story with the sorcery, the bloodshed, the violence, and, oh my gosh, the sex. (Could have been written by Steven King)

Never said I wanted you to die, that wouldn't make me a very good Deist. I am just asking you to prove your bible is true. That means you can walk on water for all I care, maybe even split a sea, or a real good one, bring someone back to life. Besides, you wouldn't die, the bible says so remember. At least if you are a true follower. Seems your having doubts, always quoting that loophole. You have yet to prove your god. I have at least proven mine. Face it Grishy, when it comes down to facts, I have you beat. All you can do is spout off opinion that isn't even your own.

Here's a Tindal quote just for you from chapter 6 of the Deist Bible, "Animosity, enmity, and hatred has over ran the christian world, and men, for the sake of these notions have exercised the utmost cruelties on one another, the most cursing and damning churches have always proved to be the most persecuting" Now Grishy, that sounds a lot like how your cult is towards anyone that doesn't agree with you. Persecution due to a belief that is written in a book that was written by man.

Oh, and I almost forgot, what about those stories I caught you in? No comment on those?

I didn't make a lady fall and then laugh about. And then double talk and quote the bible to justify it. I was just wanting to see if you were concerned at all. It is quite obvious that you do not care about these people. Or causing physical pain. I truly do not understand that or how you can think that is what God wants done.

I asked if you could quote a verse that said your way is the only way. guess not


the meek shall inherit the earth

Westex,
I used to be a deist. I've already read all that stuff(dung lol). I progressed from an agnostic to a deist to a Christian. But you just want me to drink poison because you hope I'll die. " You shall not tempt the Lord your God."

Grishy,

I am glad you agree with me that creation is my proof and it is valid.

What was it you said about the stuff I asked you to read? I believe something along the lines of, "I will not pollute my eyes by reading that dung." And here you ask me to read your stuff?

I will make ya a deal, I'll send you my copy of Tindal, you send me your copy of Josh McDowell, and then we can compare notes. That is if you can promise not to burn Tindal.

Keep in mind, if YOU yourself cannot do something that the bible says you can then the whole experiment is null and void. Just like your author, if anything he says cannot be proven, then it is invalid also.

Bob the builder,
If you look up the word "brutish" one of its definitions is "stupid". That fits very well with the context of the verse about refusing reproof, which is correction. Brutish means stupid. You know the word "Bible" is not in the Bible either, just on the cover but that does not void the value of the word.
Why don't you just stop defending the evil of adultery.Swingers are adulterers and they are without excuse before God.

" Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore, whoever wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."
James 4:4
Unrepentant adulterers and adulteresses end up in hell with the rest of God's enemies.

VA Day,
Of course you won't discuss scripture with me. You did not post on here for that. You came to do what you accuse me of,harassment. You do not post scripture because you are not concerned with God's Word. You argue from the flesh because that is your master. You preach his word.Good evening.

Can you not read I am not going to banter scripture with you. I do that in bible study on Sunday. With people that know what they are talking about. I do not have to justify myself to you. I have freedoms granted me by this great country we live in as do you and the people you are now harassing
As I stated so clearly before you have a agenda that is not Religious or Spiritual.

Notice that I don't resort to calling you names

Westex 4955,
The universe is indeed proof of God. THE God. Not a deist God. Romans chapter one makes that clear. That the creation testifies of God and man is without excuse. But there is one place you can find the proof you need. I don't have the time, nor is there the space here to argue with you further on this but I know a very scholarly source where you can get the evidence you need to prove the one true God and the Bible as His Word. Read a book by Josh McDowell called " Evidence for Christianity" If you don't want to buy it, I have a copy. Give me a post office box number, friend's address, whatever you want, and I'll send it to you for free.

Grishy,

Already did, or did you miss that post? Like all the other posts I nailed you on.

Look around, my proof is the universe. That's kinda hard to miss. Prove yours now.

Westex,
Prove your deist god.

Mr. Operator,
I did not call you a useless whining rant. I said you made a useless whining rant. You are just angry because the light is on your sin. Rant all you want. The light stays on.

VA Day,
When you start taking a firm position on ANY scripture then we can talk. But you do not quote it or take a position on any of it. So, there is nothing to discuss with you. Give me a scripture that you believe justifies your position and we can go from there. So, go for it.I'm waiting.

Why do you call me a useless whining rant. Why not call me what you really want to. I am a big boy, I can handle it. I am not scared to be called names. Why call me smooth operator, I never called myself smooth. I would not know you if I met you on the street, But i bet I can pick you out of a protesting crowd. You will be the one at the front of the crowd antagonizing and aging every one on. you get you dirty work done by use of others but want all the glory. Lots of things have been writing about you and by your responses it looks like most if not all are true. You want to talk scripture but when asked by many postings you either answer with ruddiness or you dont answer at all. You could argue with a telephone pole and loose. Sorry dont want to give you any ideas.

well that is over the top. Do you think you are Jesus and the swingers are the Roman empire?

And you have attacked first. What do you think anybody would do when they are called names and belittled. You reacted the same way when you were compared to Hitler. You need to get over yourself. NO WERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS THE WAY AND ONLY WAY. Show me a verse that says that then I will follow you. But just like what westex4955 is asking you to do, you can't.

Do you believe in the 10 commandment's? Is number 7 more important than number 9 ? You break 9 alot!!!!! Again as westex4955 has so nicely pointed out.

I will admit it, but I think most everyone here has already figured it out. I am defending the swingers. I am defending the gay bars. I am defending the strip clubs. I am defending other churches on his map (even though I am not a christian). Heck, I am even defending the xxx shops. My wife and I have been to Fantasy's many time looking for new gizmo's to enhance our sex life. I am defending the temples, the lodges and heck, even the nature center. I am defending ever place on his "warmap" because everyone has the right to gather, to believe what ever it is they believe. I am defending the Bill of Rights while he is just trying to rip it apart. No one on the above list is doing anything illegal. I may not agree with all the beliefs, but I agree with Abe Lincoln when he said, "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves".

So come on Grishy, bring your fictional work of man, I will bring the logic and wisdom of our founding fathers, the wisdom of science and reason. I will bring common sense to your imaginary world. You cannot bring anything here but a paper bound book that you cannot even prove. You are the type of person, I love to argue with because you can't win.

Oh, one thing, Grishy, using your logic. If your against the Shriners, then I guess your against medical help for little children.

Yeah, I know, your gonna ignore me because you are so self centered and arrogant. I will be nice though and not say the actual condition you suffer from. Or maybe you'll just call me names again, eh, who knows. Bless your heart......

Bob,
If you are correct and indeed there is nothing I can do about it then you don't have anything to worry about do you?

Ok Grisham I hate to do this to you, but once again you ARE wrong. The majority of bible scholars say that the King James Translation is the closest the the actual writings of the 33 years Jesus walked on earth. Since you want to be like him , then you would think that you would want to use the bible that was closest to the original writings. If you say that this is not true then you are going against the majority of learned people. If you read the post I left you about stupid on Oct 16th -I said NO where in the KING JAMES VERSION is the word stupid or stupidity used.. well you popped out Proverbs 12. 1 -- Lets just see what that scripture really says.mmmm ok here it is :::WHOSO loveth instruction, loveth knowlage, but he that hateth reproof is brutish. Now if you look up in the dictionary.com it again does NOT USE THE WORD stupid. THINGS GET CHANGED IN TRANSLATIONS and people like you use that to your advantage to believe what you want to. Another question for you. You keep saying evil likes the darkness- would that be why you try to spend most of your time out at night? if you think about it, there are sinners all day long. Maybe they need you, maybe they dont. maybe you should see if they do. Maybe you can upset them too and dont come back with that. Sinners get mad because I witness to them. Maybe you should find a new church and get saved yourself. I figure if you can say we are all lost and you dont even know us. then we can say the same about you. Its all speculation anyway. I will tell you again . you are not always right, and you can see that in you responses and actions. lead by example, not by lies and intimidating others.

chirapsia,

See what I mean, he automatically labels everyone who does not agree with him.

chirapsia,
Do you think Jesus made people angry? Of course He did. Jesus said that the darkness hates the light and those in darkness hate being exposed to the light. But He said to preach the Gospel to EVERY creature. Jesus said that a disciple is never greater than his master. But that it is enough that he be LIKE his master. Jesus also said that the world would hate His disciples because it hated Him first. It is natural and normal for people to be angry at those who preach the light of Christ to those who walk in darkness.Jesus said so. We do not preach a message the world wants to hear. We preach a message God wants to speak. Big difference. Jesus made people so mad they crucified Him.Was THAT pushing people away? No. SIN pushes people away. Preaching the truth to a world in darkness that does not want to hear it may make them angry but their reaction does not determine the value of the message. GOD'S WORD determines that and God's Word alone. We are commanded to preach it and so we will, regardless of how any man feels about it. Regardless of any man's opinion. I guess if it offends them that much they can stay at home.
You know what? You can always tell what side someone is on by whom they attack and whom they defend. By attacking me you defend the swingers and the sin of adultery. I can give you scripture to prove that if you like.

Grisham has himself been caught in more lies than he can count. I honestly thing he is dumber than a sack full of hammers. BUT THAT IS MY OPINION. You continue to try to make people believe that you are the most religious person in all of Amarillo and that ALL should turn from their ways to yours. but that is MY OPINION of you. You think all swingers and bar hoppers and tree huggers and churches on your war map are all going to hell. But again that is YOUR OPINION . We can do this MY OPINION-- YOUR OPINION all day but all it will do is make you defensive. So how many haunted houses did you shut down??? I am guessing --ZERO LOL . You will be at the swingers club again and you once again will act like you are all that and a bag of chips.I wish I was as good as some of you with these 25cent words yall use but face it. It does not matter what words you use, you still are not winning any brownie points at the club. You or your sheep can use mega phones or hollar or just plain talk loud but all you are doing is driving people to dislike you more.. If you notice , I do not call people stupid, or use the word hate or any other belittling words at or to anyone to try to change their lifes, I do tell you it is MY OPINION though!!!! You however use any means possible to get peeps dander up because you think it makes you look BIG. What it does however is --makes you look like you dont have the sense God gave a bag of beans, BUT AGAIN THAT IS ONLY MY OPINION!!When was the last time you protested lets say --- That nude place at 3rd and lakeside that you talked about in the city council meeting?? And If I am not mistaking you said in the past that you only protest in the city limits. If this is true then why is the peace farm on your map. What have they done to get under your skin. You will never stop these places you protest at, even if the building closes do you actually think you can or will stop anything? We all have houses. And if you was smart enough you would notice that swingers meet at a lot more places than a brick building. Again I urge you to attack all the illegal activity and stop worrying about things that are perfectly legal between consenting adults. A judge once told me that a woman could sleep with every one in town and there is nothing anyone can do about it because it was not illegal. You sir fall in the catagory of -- NO ONE CAN DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!! There are bigger fish in the sea than trying to catch us when there is nothing there for you to catch.

He doesn't have a building for anybody to go to. The only point he makes that I agree with is about having a building or not having one. A building doesn't make a Church it is so much more than that.

Now that being said I want to say that he doesn't control this forum and calling people names and then saying if you won't talk scripture then he won't reply fine. take your marbles and go play somewhere else! why don't you put a forum on your web site then you can banter the scripture all your little heart desires.

You have a agenda that is not Religious or Spiritual. what did the owner's do to you? This is something I would like for you to think about do you think you are really going to stop swinging or the lifestyle that they live? Now that the building is rented next month. Can you understand that it is a business now? Something that was pointed out in this blog quite some time ago. I went to the myspace you talked about and it looked like they are going to rent the building.

chirapsia,

Here's the thing, he doesn't care. All he cares about is shoving his beliefs on others anyway he can. From what I have gathered reading his posts and the so called "swinger's" posts, he is taking pictures and video. They claim he has even learned who they are by having the plates ran from the photographs and video and then he calls their jobs. So according to them, our so called righteous man of god is down to using blackmail. Now realize that I have no proof of any of this, but for what else would he want the pictures and video for? Does it excite him to go home and watch the vid and look at the pictures?

Look back through his posts and you will see that Grishy is as extreme in his convictions as Jim Jones, David Koresh, and as the original article states, Hitler. I am awaiting him to finally lose it and resort to violence. It will be a cowards attempt at violence though because he will have someone else do the "deed" for him. Just like he had his son take the hit that should have been for him when they incited that riot downtown. All for more publicity, more media, and more camera time. All just to boost his pride. I actually think he suffers from low self esteem and is using all this just to bump his image, but I'm not a psychiatrist so my opinion on that doesn't bear any weight.

Grisham,

Have you ever considered that you are pushing people away from church, God, or whatever they believe in. Or is this a pride thing. You have intimidated and angered people to a point that they don't want to listen to you or anyone else. You may feel you were sent to this club to do what you feel is right. But everyone has THEIR own convictions and they have to suffer their own consequences. Don't let this be your down fall. Don't let your pride get in the way. For that is one of the deadly sins.

You may not agree with the way they live. They don't agree with the way you protest. If you truly are working for your God then do the right thing. Pray. Don't intimidate. Don't humiliate.

Operator,
Another swinger, another useless whining rant. When you want to talk scripture I'll be waiting. Don't change your name to smooth operator cause you're not.

Lets recap and see how much Grishy has storied....

Lie #1: From Grishy himself in the February 5, 2009 edition of the AGN "Greg Sagan seems to think we are bullies (Globe-News column, Feb. 3). We are nothing of the kind.
"If we were bullies, there would have been many other things we could have done at the Route 66 Swingers Club that we simply did not choose to do. We could have taken photographs of the people going in, to shame them publicly. We did not. We could have taken down license plates and put names on our Web site. We did not. That would be bullying."

-Ahhhh, but according to the swingers (and confirmed by Grishy) the cult IS taking pictures of people.

-Here's another one from Grishy that seems to be of a different tune than is being sung above, "Photos were taken of only TWO cars" (Posted in the Jan 1st edition of the agn on Jan. 11, 2009 at 10:19:05 am.

Guess this means that ya'll ARE bullies according to your own words.

Lie #2: From Grishy in the 18 October 2009 at 1:59 PM post on the prairie, "We have never put anyone undercover in the swingers club "

-and another one from Grishy in The Prairie article blog on 31 March 2009 at 4:18 PM, "I went undercover for an interview with the owner"

-and another from the prairie on the post of the above date "We very nearly got undercover reporters in there with hidden cameras prior to our outreach on Dec. 31st. They were scheduled to go in under fake names I provided during the interview for one of their Halloween parties (there were two) But because of technical difficulties with equipment that was not possible".

-and yet another one from Grishy himself in the agn blog of January 8, 2009, "We have a member as an inside source"

-next from Grishy again in the Jan 1, 09 edition of the agn at 6:33 pm, "We have an inside source."


Better repent Grishy, or Repent Amarillo will be protesting you...

If anyone is playing a hoax it is the cult. And if you had anybody in that club you would know that there is nothing unlawful going on in there. There is More unlawful activity going on in the parking lot from the cult, harassment and verbal abuse, there is a lot of documentation on it.

OK so you do have someone going to there meetings. what is western cowpunchers? Is it that hard to get in to there meetings or parties?

hope this dosn't sound dumb but why would you need a hidden camera if it is open to the public for the play? And why would Avenue 10 want to play a hoax? Do they have some other place to put on a play? Is Avenue 10 a "swingers group" also?

Using your reasoning, then Dave, you must be stupid. Everyone on this board is attempting to correct your behavior.

I have been reading this garbage, and I feel its time to put my 2 cents worth in. Many times I have noticed Mr Grisham has been asked questions, and many times I cannot find where he answered the questions put forth to him. Does he really protest that much and does he really laugh at ladies that fall? Does he really think that Amarillo is that bad of a town and if so - why does he not move to a more Grisham friendly environment? I do not have to ask if he really tried to pull the wool over the city council meeting, I WATCHED THE VIDEO LOL!!!!! Why would any one think that this council of ours is that gullible. After checking out the RAVEN MINISTRIES web sight. I am appalled by the way they feel the world has to be theirs. Is it true that they have their own BIBLE? Maybe this is why he reads out of context so much, these parts did not agree with their beliefs so they just left them out. I think I need to see how he acts in public so I will be visiting this swingers club that RAVEN, RAVES about. I will be taking notes on his actions and see if his lies really exist. I have seen a few in readings and in his videos, so I am guessing he does lie. ANYONE who says they dont lie, is a liar and the truth is not in him. There are no such a things as white lies, either you do ,or you dont! There is no in between. Sooner or later his lies will catch up with him and bite him in the BACKSIDE. What will you do then Mr. Grisham?? in your line of work, it is all about credibility , and when you loose that , you loose your followers. Would that be why you have no building? You know one day it will all be over but the sad singing and the slow walking. Then who will you lead? NO ONE. . Go ahead and say what you want, But my 2 big eyes will be watching you at the next party.

confused,
We have never put anyone undercover in the swingers club but we have had two swingers on the inside give us information. The last time we got this inside information was when we received info on their outside parties at Western Cowpunchers. This contact is still active. According to the Avenue 10's website on Myspace, Avenue 10's play "A Midsummer Night's Nude" is scheduled to play at the swinger's club Friday and Saturday nights from Nov. 13th-21st.There are several people in our group that do not actually go out on the streets so our plan is to get one to purchase a ticket to this play (so long as Ave. 10 is not playing a hoax here)and then go inside the swinger's club for this public performance with a hidden camera.Should be interesting.

Hi RJ

can you tell us more about the antics of the zealot.

Westex4955

If you get a rattlesnake to bite him one of his group would turn you in to the SPCA because the snake would die he if full of s%&T

Bob

love the Forrest Gump quote. Do you think someone needs to explain it to what are y'all calling him? Grishy right. personaly I like who Ms Harder compared hin to

Grishy,

I don't need any written proof because my proof lies in something that is very tangible, the very existence of the universe. That is the one true miracle because we can see that it happened, and it cannot be explained. That is all the proof I need and you cannot deny that because your beliefs start similar to mine. Where is the proof that your bible is true and not just a fictional story written by man? Remember, proof is something that can be discovered by the senses and not by the imagination.

I do have a responsibility to God (which I follow the best I can), we have been over that, but as usual, you are to narrow minded to listen. If you had actually been a deist, you would know this. Your gonna have to watch the story telling or your cult may turn on ya.

Bob the builder,
Proverbs 12:1 " Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge. But he who hates correction is stupid."

westex 4955,
I still consider you an atheist. If you really believed in God you would believe you have a responsibility to Him. You make up an imaginary God that allows you to set your own standards for morality.The supposed deist God you believe in is a dumb mute god that just sits in the sky doing nothing. Having no interaction with his creation. You set up this imaginary god which has NO EVIDENCE of his existence and yet you deny all evidence for the one true God. I say if you want to prove YOUR deist God then provide some documentation. At least I can show you the Bible. What can you show but mere words that have less effect than a fart in the wind?How can you deny the one true God of the Bible and yet claim to believe in a deist god with less evidence than you have already dismissed? You are an atheist.The only god you worship is self.And that does make you a fool.

mmmm, wonder what Grishy has to say today????

well I finally got to read this stuff again... same old Grisham and his same old games...seems like people just keep putting our favorite protester in his spot.. and as usual he does not like it...mmmm some interesting things being said about him and I know from face to face experience that it is more than likely almost all true... Grisham has lost his mind... you can catch him in lies and he calls you stupid... or says he has nothing to say to you... its ok. he will be called on all his lies and foolishness one day... I still think he should get a building of his own or at least protest all his BAD PLACES everytime they are open as I have said in the past... by the way.. you never responded to that question Grisham... why not

ok looks like Grishy is having a bad day. So now he is calling people liars and stupid. Is it because anything he thinks is not the truth, is a lie??? He knows no one at any of his target points enough to call them a liar or stupid. A wise old man named FOREST GUMP once said. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES. Need I say more on that subject!!! Now after reading and watching all of his actions that I have personally witnessed , I have come to the conclusion that Grishy needs to read the book a little bit more. Do you not think you will stand before God one day for your actions? Do you really think all the protesting you do pleases anyone here or above? How would you act if 15 sandwich boy was not there to have your back? would you still be as mouthy as you are now? and how come I am told that every time the Police show up, you turn as nice as can be. You have started loosing credibility with the media and the city council. You cant stand it when you are put in your place, the first thing you come up with is calling people liars and stupid-- by the way., NO WHERE IN THE KING JAMES BIBLE IS THE WORD STUPID OR THE WORD STUPIDITY USED,, not even once!!!!!!. and I wonder where these so called prostitutes that one of your flock said they seen walk in the building came from?? I may be new but I am not stupid and there are not any of those type of ladies there!! And what made him think they were prostitutes?? Was it because of the way they dressed?? is this not stereo typing ?? Is that not judging because of outward appearance? Isnt this against your teaching? the bible says it is. I did not know you got removed from a sight. but I dont dought it one bit. the bible speaks of false teachers, and with all your actions I personally think you fit that category. But there again it is only MY opinion.

Westex4955

Yes I see what you are saying! I feel a little foolish that I thought I could make a point with someone as narrow minded and this person seems to be.

I have the feeling that you are enjoying yourself.

You did it again (confused me) I thought you told Mr. Brown on here that you were trying to put someone undercover in there. did I miss understand that post?

I asked were is it all going? not what good does it do? What else do you feel you need to do or can do with the "swinger club". Do you want a physical confrontation with those people?

V.A. Day,

He doesn't understand anything but what the voices in his head tell him too. He doesn't give a tinkers d#$@ about anyone or anything unless they do what he insists. I have been arguing with him since all this started and the stuff he spouts just gets funnier and funnier. He always has a salesman's answer to anything. he has lied countless times in these posts and the ones on the agn articles. The Amarillo Indy kicked him off finally. He interprets the bible as he sees fits no matter what the verse says. He doesn't care about hurting people unless they agree with him. All he cares about is his freedom, but no one else should get to have any. I have personally seen him and his little horde tell people they are going to hell (and before you start on me Grisham, it was not at the swingers club). I think though, I'll start calling you Grishy as Sir Michael did on the Indy. That does seem to suit you. He will attempt anything in order to coerce people to follow him. All he can do is spot scripture and insult people. How many times now, Grishy have you told me I am going to hell? I think you called me satan just once though. Have to see if I can up the score on that one. MK 16:18, Grishy. Hey, I did have an idea on that one. Surely one of your horde is a follower since it doesn't seem like you are. That would mean (according to the gospel) that they should be able to heal you if you got sick from the poison or the rattlesnake. I can't figure out why you are so scared, it would seem like your in good hands. You have that bouncer that follows you around. Or better yet, have your son take the fall like he did when ya'll started that riot. Interesting to note on that video, he was warned to get the camera out of someones face, heard that clear as a bell. Next time maybe heed the warning?

You are a small minded person the first thing you do if some dosn't see things your way is call them names. May be that is why the City Attorney finds your group unreliable. Are you proud of that ?

you amaze me you are the first one to try and insult some one, the biggest whinner on here and lets not talk about stupidity you corner the market on that!!!!!

I was told to check this blog out by a friend and he is right you are out there in your own little world. You still have to answer to mans law weather like it or not.

OK are you a Dr? Did you examine her ? You do not have to touch anybody to assault them. and can you stop the light from a car head light or a camera flash from traveling over 20 feet?

Now by your statement one of your group took a picture "she accused the wrong person of taking the photograph" your own words. a flash in the dark causes the the eye to react and your sight is momentarily effected.

"And if you defend sin, you commit sin. So, until you hate sin you have NO WISDOM. Proverbs says, ” Fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of all wisdom” and it says, ” To fear the Lord is to hate evil(sin).” So, in order to even BEGIN to have wisdom you must start hating sin. Sounds to me like you love sin because you defend it."
What does any of that dribble have to do with what your group did ? What sin am I defending. by spouting some bible verse justifies laughing at someone you caused to fall? You do not care that you caused her pain. falling causes pain a little or a lot dosn't matter do you not understand that?

VA,
The above post goes for you too. I will no longer respond to whining, insults, or stupidity. If you want to debate scripture let's go for it but if you just want to whine like a four year old who found the cookie jar locked, I will just ignore you. Good day, sir.

Bob,
Another swinger huh? Another swinger, another pack of whining lies. Go figure.Or maybe it is the same one with just a different sign-in name to make it look like more. Who knows. The darkness hates the light.

Proof?

What proof? So far we have just been arguing about the wording of the bible. Just like a book report. I have seen no proof that the bible is nothing more than a work of fiction. Heck, they have even made movies using it "The Greatest Story Ever Told", "The Ten Commandments", "Ben Hur", "History of the World part 1", "The Life of Brian", and then of course the Mel Gibson one, but I haven't seen it. I have told you what it will take to prove it to me and, of course, you refuse. Lots of faith it would take to pull off one little verse that would make or break your whole story. Then again, I don't blame you, I would be scared to do it too. I have a reason to be scared though, I don't quite understand yours though since you claim to be such a follower of the word.

You and your little horde looked real good on that video. Loved the matching shirts. You need some fresh blood though, I am getting tired of seeing the same faces.

Glad you quit referring to me as an atheist,

"No one can force their beliefs on anyone. Belief is a matter of the heart.Choices of the heart cannot be forced.What good does it do? It gives them a chance to repent every time we show up.Either it will plant a seed in their hearts, water a seed someone else has planted, or our repeated attempts to witness to them will remove any and all excuses on their day of judgment."
- so tell me, you have been doing this since new years, why continue? You can't beat a dead horse. Have you saved one person from the club or turned them even more against you? Remember lying is a sin...

Anyone interested in Deism, let me know, I'll explain our beliefs without harassing you or attempted blackmail.

tell me what is it like in Grisham land today. I hear that the play you are wanting to stop may have a place to perform now.

well it just keeps getting better, the adults keep getting smarter and the protesters keep getting crazier. weather you believe in God or not, weather you believe in the swing life style, the earth day , the theater or bar scene or anything else brought up or not, face it. its a way of life. Grisham has every right to protest but his protesting has gotten way out of control- Grisham wants things his way and only his way!!!!! he does not like getting shot down and definitely does not like it when people prove him to be wrong or catch him in lies. I agree that he has a severe case of wanting to close down the swingers club, but does he show up to every other place on his WAR MAP every time that establishment is open too??? He is not being consistent in what he believes. If he is going to witness, then witness to ALL THE WAR MAP places and every time they are open. Or is it that you do not have enough sheep to lead. There are lost people all over town and the world, not just at the swingers club. You have lost any chance of reaching anyone there due to your actions which include but not limited to--- INVADING PEOPLES PRIVACY, THREATENING PEOPLE WITH GOING TO HELL, BEING CAUGHT IN LIES, CALLING PLACES OF EMPLOYMENT OF THE ONES YOU PROTEST, RUNNING PEOPLES LICENSES PLATES TO GET INFO YOU THINK YOU NEED. Maybe you should try climbing a sycamore tree like the rich tax collector and try catching a glimpse of the one you work for. Maybe your life will be changed like Zac. did. Its time to stop all this nonsense. Jesus walked and talked and preached the gospel. He DID NOT harass people nor did he try to intimidate anyone. and he certainly would never laughed at someone who fell and got hurt because of him. He would have picked up that person and dusted them off. But NEVER laughed. All grisham is doing is making himself look worse and NOT MAKING GOD ANY HAPPIER with him. One Day he will loose it, or push someone past the point of no return and then it will be to late to say I am sorry. or maybe he will just laugh again. I worry about this whole situation because I have personally seen him push some to the point of being very mad. Maybe a restraining order from the ones he has verbally attacked is in order.

V.A.
The woman was not hurt.Unless it was just her pride. Then she lied to the police and claimed she was assaulted when no one was within 20 feet of her and there was no physical contact and she accused the wrong person of taking the photograph. She lied twice. And if you defend sin, you commit sin. So, until you hate sin you have NO WISDOM. Proverbs says, " Fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of all wisdom" and it says, " To fear the Lord is to hate evil(sin)." So, in order to even BEGIN to have wisdom you must start hating sin. Sounds to me like you love sin because you defend it.

Westex 4955,
The geneaologies are different because they are through two different lineages that both trace back to King David. They both end with Joseph because they never mention women in legal geneaologies. One goes to Joseph through Joseph's BIOLOGIGAL father, Jacob. The other goes through Joseph's FATHER-IN-LAW ( MARY'S biological father) Heli.They both end with Joseph but Heli is Mary's dad ( Joseph's father-in-law). They just don't mention her specifically because they never mention women in geneaologies.It is explained in detail in my long post. At this point if you do not see it, it is because you refuse to see it and further explanation is a waste of time. That is just like you atheists ( or deists). Every time a standard of proof is met you just raise the standard higher. This is because you are not looking for prooof of Christ but looking for an EXCUSE so as to dodge your responsibility to Him. That is why you are a deist. You know there is a God and to believe differently is foolish. But you deny Christ because to accept a God that is involved with mankind means to be held accountable for a response to that involvement. But your love of your sin overides any love of God. In the book of Jude it describes you perfectly. It says you accept God with your lips but you DENY Him by your works. Deists think they escape the description of the fool by acknowledging God in existence only but deny Him by their evil works of disobedience. That puts you on the same belief level as demons.And still puts you in the same destination if you refuse Christ.

confused,
We are not trying to get into the swinger's club.And yes, the people attending have the right to believe what they believe. No one can force their beliefs on anyone. Belief is a matter of the heart.Choices of the heart cannot be forced.What good does it do? It gives them a chance to repent every time we show up.Either it will plant a seed in their hearts, water a seed someone else has planted, or our repeated attempts to witness to them will remove any and all excuses on their day of judgment.

I was told, the lady that fell when your group flashed her with a camera and car head light was hurt and your group laughed at her.
Is that what Jesus would do? I don't think so!!!! Is that how you show you love the person and hate the sin? Do me a favor don't come witness to me, please.

looks like the numbers of people that don't believe in what your group is doing is growing

"City Attorney Marcus Norris said the city needed far more reliable information before it could even consider action."

You going to start witnessing to the city administration?

Get shot down again Grisham? http://amarilloindy.com/wordpress/?p=2842
Did your strategic undercover operation fail?


Geez, will you never learn that other people have the same rights as you do.

Tick-Tock Tick-Tock, Jeebus Commander Grisham. Well you won't answer my posts because you're pretending what I say is not true. Well, you just go on and brag about all your big, bad Jeebus actions. Be boastful and proud about all the damage and hurt you bring on to good, innocent and productive people. Just continue everything your little Mud Circus does and get your head bigger and bigger. But you know little David, God does not hear you. He sees you make a fool of his teachings and bring ridicule upon the truly faithful. The only definite person we know from all this adventure that is Hell-bound is You. We are watching Jeebus boy, We are watching. "Revenge is a Dish, Best Served Cold." Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock....

OK can someone explain to me what kind of a group (repent Amarillo) these people are? I mean undercover people and concealed cameras. It has peeked my curiosity about the "swinger club" really why would someone go to such links to get in some place that they are trying so hard to close?

And before I am berated for using a screen name have you ever had your identity stolen, I have. And I have been told to always use a screen name on the net.

have you reached anybody there? a lot of points made on here, but were is all it going? At what point does what you are trying to do becomes harassment? Do the people your protesting/witnessing to have rights to chose what they believe?

Now are you going to start calling me names because I questioned motives? because you talk about scripture and then legal points and sounds like the Police have been involved. how long before some one gets hurt. it is obvious that there is deep feelings on both sides and it would be sad if that happens .

If you wish for people to follow you then it is your job to prove it. Proclamation means jack without proof. Especially when it is shoved down someones throat. I could easily proclaim that the boogy man actually exists, but alas I lack the proof. I could claim that you mean well, but once again I lack proof.

You said, "I told you that ridiculous line is closed." It's in the bible so how is that ridiculous? Well, to me that would be a bit hypocritical. You use the bible as the source of all your so called righteousness. You claim the bible as your source of "power". Well, that verse is written in the bible as well. With the way it reads, then you should be able to pass that test with ease since you are such a follower of the word. So come on Grisham, its time to man up. Are you a follower or not? I think you have ran out of arguments against mk 16:18 since all you can do is dodge it. Funny how your god gave you that loophole huh?

As far as the Joseph and Mary thing goes, both genealogy's in Matthew and Luke (and the variations between the 2) end with Joseph, so your big long winded explanation is moot. I was talking about how they were different, you were the one who brought Mary into it. Which I proved you wrong on that one too, neither one mentioned Mary. You use the bible as factual reference so in this case, I will too. It would seem that since your god put the words into man's head (imagination anyone?) he would at least want it to be accurate.

I still find it funny how you hang out at the swingers club. Are you sure you don't want to secretly be involved? Once again, you "proclaim" that your little cult has been to all those places you listed. Wheres the proof? I can give you the Le Cheteau since you did incite a riot there, but the others, well, haven't heard anything to proove that. I notice you didn't list any of the churches you protest against. Scared? When are you going to those places? I want to drive by and take a picture when you are there especially if it's St Andrews.

roadking,
We do have permission to use the parking lot. It is not in writing. It is verbal only. The head of security at Chase Bank came to the lot a few weeks ago and told us again that the owner knows who we are, that we are on the lot, and has no problems with what we are doing. You don't believe that? Tough. We do not care.It is the truth and our responsibility ends with our telling it to you. The discussion of the parking lot is over.
We go all over Amarillo. Just ask any strip club owner. They just love us. We have been to Cheetah's, The 806, Sassy's,Le Chateau, Burberry's, The Pine Shed, Whiskey River, Players, The Jungle, Beavers, Studio One, Cassidy's as well as other places. We have led numerous people to the Lord along the way here in Amarillo, Ft. Worth, Daytona Beach Florida, Albequerque NM, Las Vegas Nev., and New Orleans. We go all over Amarillo and all over the U.S. Perhaps soon, all over the world. So, do not be so prideful to think that you have our undivided attention. Jesus Christ is trying to reach you through us. He is trying to get you to repent of your sins so you don't end up in hell. I suggest you listen to that call.

Westex 4955,
And it is not my job to prove the Gospel to you. It is my job to PROCLAIM it to you.

Westex 4955,
I told you in that long post that one geneaology line is to Joseph and the other to Mary's father. Read that post again. It is very clear and explains it all. And I will not drink poison, I told you that ridiculous line is closed.

kiki couple,
When you can post something other than venom I will again reply to you.

Grisham,

Sorry, it took so long to get back to you. My weekend was full of heathen things to do.

Onto the discussion....

Nice eloquent post you put up, but you still never answered my question. I asked why the lines were different, I already knew they both ended with Joseph. You did correct yourself though. In a previous post you said, "The differences in genealogy is that one is the geneaology of Joseph and the other one is of Mary so naturally there would be differences but they both trace back to King David". I am shocked that a lowly Deist like me had to correct you (a trained minister) that both ended with Joseph

As far as the immaculate conception, after reading both books, it would appears that you are correct in the wording.

Back to the original questions at hand now,

Who wrote the original?

Are you sure that your believing the right way after the vote at the counsel of nicea?

Why the variation of key elements in the crucifiction?

MK 16:18?

You realize that you can correct the wording on the bible all you want (makes it feel like a book review), but you will never prove it because you will never be able to perform the action I require. Although it should be such a simple task since your book says you can. Are ya scared that he won't have your back when you need it? That's a lot off faith you have there or is it the old Deist reason slipping back in? Better watch that or you'll be back into your old ways. (Heh heh, and quit trying to convince me that you used to be a Deist, I am not gonna bite in that)

there again, you sir Grisham ARE A LIAR.. you NEVER told me last night IF i didnt repent i would go to hell.. YOU DID TELL me numerous times however I WAS going to hell, you also accused my wife of sleeping with other guys and called me an adulterer to my face...but its only speculation on your part, you know NOTHING about me or my wife,.. you told the cops you never call people names and never call people by their name.. you again are a bold face liar because I heard you tell the officer that at 10:46 pm with my own ears.. do not attempt to say I miss heard you because of alcohol because I DO NOT DRINK. you try to stir up peoples dander because you get a thrill of that.. you brag about you are backed by the security at Chase and again you are a liar... they do not want to be involved so you do NOT have that connection either...you get involved in things that do not concern you and you get into peoples business that you should not... you have called me by my last name and NO ONE AT THE BUILDING knows my last name or where I live... you are in MY MIND a protesting, trouble making, liar, wanna be in control, no account good for nothing wasted air breathing MAN... you are NOT GOD so stop acting like you are...

Still can't respond can you little David? You have no idea what's headed your way. Let me state this clear and certain. Your sick, warped attempts will be answered in Full. All the hurt and damage you have caused will be returned to you in ways you haven't even contemplated. I will be there when you are served! And The damage to your "cause" will be permanent!! At a time and place so familiar to Amarillo citizens. And it sure as Hades is not the Swingers Club!! Tick Tick, Tick-Tock...

david grisham, again you dont have all the facts. the lady in the matter had nothing but dr.pepper to drink last night. and what about the fact of you and your clan lying to the police and to others that u have permission to be on the parking lot when infact you dont. and are you such a coward to address this in your comments back to me.you show no compassion to others in any way shape or form. you are evil in the true sence of the word. you try to use gods word to help u in your evil doings. is it christ like to contact peoples work place causing them to loose thier jobs. threating to contact peoples family to the lifestyle they choose to live. we are all grow adults here, well except for you and your clan. sorry but we all dont want to live in hate as you do. as far as i can tell none of the swingers have done anything to you for all the crap that you put us through. opps i forgot you do all this in the name of god. so it makes it ok. and the instance of the assault on you so called christians, you bring these things upon your selves. you back a dog in a corner and you are going to get bit. instead of bringing young adults to your so called witnessing, why dont you bring adults with wisdom and maturity with you so they can see how you truely are."because they wouldnt see it to be so funny as the younger adults you bring do". why do we not see you at 212, sassys ,war legons, the 806 anymore. yes we also have eyes on you. and you say that you dont treat the swingers any different than any other group. in fact you have such a hang up with us, you are willing to sit in a parking lot for over 2 hours when there is no party. how stupid yall looked. in fact you make it a point to be at the swingers club every time the doors are open.

Dave,

I'm not sure you know what "defensive" means.

And like I said all the "proof" has been "taken care of." I CAN tell you there's more than a few "Grisham Stories" floating around out there.

I'm not mistaken OR lying, but that kind of binary thinking is pretty indicative of how you think, which is why you also contended during one of your visits at my store that you weren't "a homosexual."

Only you know what's in your heart, too, and what's in your head is actually making most of this community here think you're a big joke. There's more interesting and pressing things to get your panties into a wad about, bubba.

Peace.

Roadking,
I was not sweating bullets. God takes care of me.You are obviously one of the swingers. First of all, we always tell people that "IF" they do not repent of their sins and accept Christ as their savior then they will end up in hell.Emphasis on "IF". We NEVER tell people they are going to hell as we cannot know the future. But Jesus Himself said all those who do not believe in Him are condemned (John 3:18)He also said you must repent.We just repeat what Jesus Christ taught.The woman slipped because alcohol and ice don't mix.The car was angled away from the door with its lights offset from the door. A false Police report was made resulting in my being illegally detained for about an hour.False police reports are illegal and that will be looked into. No one was within 30 feet of her when she fell.The only actual assault at the swinger's club has been by a swinger against a Christian.That charge is still pending.But enough about last night. Roadking, you need to be prepared to meet your king.You will stand before Him in judgment. "IF" you stand with your sins and without Jesus Christ you will stand alone and you will be found guilty before God and cast into hell.That is the truth.You need to repent of your sins, accept Christ as your Savior, and OBEY GOD. Stop obeying the lusts of your flesh. " In this the children of God and the children of the Devil are manifest: He who does not practice righteousness is not of God. Nor is he who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10
Swinger's clubs are adulterous fleshpeddling temples of sin. You cannot serve that and serve God as Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. Spirit or flesh, light or darkness, obedience or sin,life or death, truth or lies, Christ or Satan, Heaven or hell. Many names but only two masters to serve. Your choice, choose wisely.

i have been reading these blogs sence they started, feel that it is time to put in my 2 cents in. at last nights gathering grisham and his clan was at building taunting and harassing people as they came into the building, claming that chase towers supports them, a out and out lie. and they know it.if this is true why dont you have it in writing. and they claim they dont lie. hmmmmmmmmmmmm. and yes they do tell people that are going to hell. have heard this first hand. but the best part of the night was seeing YOU david grisham sitting in the back seat of a squad car, probably sweating bullets wondering if you was going to jail or not.
the reason that this was done is, one of the cpls was leaving the building when they flashed thier camera and bright lighted them with the car , causeing the lady to slip and fall. why do you feel that you have to take up two parking spaces facing the door of the building.
you and your clan are sad sad people. dont yall have a life other than protesting things that you dont have a clue about.God grace is upon all of us. you and your clan give christians a bad name, and do more harm than good.in fact you run more people away from christ than to him. i have always been told that you can catch more bees with honey than vinegar, and you sir are the sourest of all vinegars.

Ashley,
When Jesus was saying." Let whoever is without sin cast the first stone." He was not saying if you EVER had sinned. He was referring to a specific sin the crowd was committing AT THAT VERY MOMENT. What sin was that? Partiality under the law. They said they had caught the woman in the very act of adultery. So, where was the man? They were not trying to stone him. He may have been one of the men in the crowd holding stones.In Deuteronomy the law very specifically states that BOTH the man and the woman must be stoned for adultery. So, they were breaking the law and thus sinning by unfairly enforcing the law. THAT is the "sin" Jesus was referring to as they were all guilty of it in that very moment. He was in no way referring to past sins.
God did not turn His back on His own Son at the throne of God. You are obviously ignorant of scripture.NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that. If you think it does then PROVE IT. You cannot because it is not there. I have sinned but I no longer walk in sin because I walk with Christ. If I accidentally sin then I am covered by grace but I do not wilfully sin. Those who wilfully sin are children of the devil (1 John 3:10)
The Bible ALWAYS refers to "sinners" as the unsaved and it ALWAYS refers to the saved as "saints". I am saved and therefore a saint, not a sinner. And I do not judge you. I discern between right and wrong based on judgments God has already made in His Word.As a Christian I am authorized to say anything and everything in God's Word. I am commanded to warn the wicked and backslidden Christian.I am commanded to stand against evil. Adultery is evil and a swinger's club operating in public as a business is a demonic stench that stinks up our city and demands a response from Christians. The reason evil grows daily in our country(and city) is because Christians spend too much time trying to bring the world into the church rather than taking the Gospel of Jesus Christ into the world. It is EVERY Christian's call from God to shine the light of Christ on darkness wherever it is found. We do not stand FOR Christ if we refuse to stand AGAINST the devil.The darkness hates the light and is naturally offended but we do not care about that.We obey the commandments of God not the rantings of darkness.I'm sure you would like us to "go away" so you could go back to sin without having the light of truth shined on it but so long as that club is in operation so will we be in operation to expose the darkness to the light.

RJ,
You are either mistaken or a liar. I am not defensive, just confident you can produce no proof since no proof exists.This subject matter is closed as it is just a fiction you have created in your heart.

Dave,
Actual dates and times I don't remember, but it was summer before last, not even close to "ten years ago." Obviously you do too, hence the defensiveness as well as the fact you want to ask me specific dates and times.

The only motivation I have is I'm sick of hearing you run your mouth all the time about what "evils" OTHERS do, when in fact you don't look at your own.

As far as other "evidence" it was probably mopped.

again I state... I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO REMEMBERS YOU, and I'm sure others from that place or places like it know you a lot more intimately than the guy who took your money and gave you a ticket. I know I've talked to more than a few.

Jeebus Commander Grisham, that was the most Elongated, Rambling, Twisted presentation I have ever read. I realize you are too absorbed to ever answer my posts, but your last one(post) is absolute galvanizing proof that you sir are a Fanatical, Myopic and Deeply troubled Religious Extremist to the core. Amarillo Taliban! It's truly hard to imagine someone so lost in their own Delusion that they can only hide behind the words of the Bible. Words twisted and convoluted to fit your blind beliefs. Once again, because I won't participate in your Twisted Scipture banter, you won't answer my posts. We both know why. Of course, Now you probably will and answer with some short childish refusal. Such is the guise of a Madman. I don't care if you ever respond or not. I'll enjoy watching you Fall in silence. Tick-Tock Tick-Tock...

Mr. Grisham,

By creating a building, you allow your followers to join you in fellowship. You allow people who are interested in your beliefs to come see what you're like. Instead, you hide away on your militant website, only coming out to raise your posters and shout at people who are minding their own business. Wasn't it Jesus who said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I sin, you sin, we all sin. It's a fact. When Christ stood before the throne when he ascended, God turned his back on his own son because he bore the sins of the entire world. Why then, is it okay for you, a man and a sinner, to judge me? Perhaps the activities you protest against are against God's word, but isn't that for me to decide? If I want to participate, who are you to tell me no? By all means, let those uninformed become informed, but after you have been rejected... walk away, because you have done your "duty" to your God. In fact, it is your determination to prove that I'm going to hell that makes me abstain from church. Do not judge lest though be judged. And, out of curiosity, do you follow all the laws of the Bible? If you do, how many times have you had to stone a woman for being in public while she is menstrating? Just a question. I doubt you'll answer though.

RJ,
I cannot know the motivation of your heart so I can only say this. I have gone into adult bookstores (porn shops) when I was unsaved but that was MANY years ago(more than 10)The one locally that I have been to many years ago is no longer in business.I have NEVER purchased the items you describe ( one of them I don't even know what chemical it is). So, I can only conclude that you are either mistaken or a liar. Now, if you can produce ACTUAL times and dates I can easily prove you wrong as I will have been somewhere else.The truth is easily proven so I have nothing to fear. Not even a good try, sir.

Westex4955,
The angel appearing to Joseph and Mary was two separate events as:
1. The angel appeared to Mary in physical form while she was awake. It was not a vision but a physical visitation.
2. The visitation to Mary was PRIOR to her being pregnant.
3. The angel appearing to Joseph was a vision in a dream not a physical visitation.
4. The angel appearing to Joseph in the dream was AFTER Mary was pregnant as Joseph was having reservations of his betrothed wife being pregnant when he knew they had had no intimate contact.
5. The purpose of the angel's appearing to Mary was to announce her pregnancy by the Holy Spirit.
6. The purpose of the angel appearing to Joseph was to calm his fears and strengthen his faith that Mary was telling the truth about the origin of her pregnancy.
So, it was two different visitations as it was two differing methods at two differing times with two differing messages. The scripture is very clear on this.

Jesus Christ is descended from David:
If He is from the line of David, then certainly Joseph could not be of his immediate paternal bloodline since Joseph was not his natural father. The bloodline could only be traced through His mother, Mary. She alone provided 100% of His genetic material, and thus provided the "flesh of the offspring of David", as shown in Rom 1:3,
"...concerning His Son who was born to Him according to the flesh of the offspring of David."

Matt 1:1, "The book of the origin of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham."

John 7:42, "...Does not the Scripture say that it is of the offspring of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David lived, that the Christ is to come."

2Tim 2:8, Remember that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and was descended from David."

Luke 1:32, "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord GOD will give Him the throne of David, His father, and He shall be king over the house of Jacob forever."

Gal 4:4, "But when the fullness of time came, GOD sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law."

See also all of these verses which refer to Jesus Christ as the Son of David:
Matt 9:27,12:23,15:22,20:30-31,21:9,21:15,22:42,22:45, Mark 10:47-48,12:35,12:37, Luke 18:38-39, Luke 20:44.


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I have shown so far that Jesus Christ is descended from David, but through the genealogy of Mary it is only implied. However, Jesus had no human father. There was no human exchange for the conception of Jesus and so the human bloodline cannot be traced through Joseph.
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Jewish law required that genealogies were to be through the line of the males, and not the females...

Num 1:17-18, "So Moses and Aaron took these men who had been designated, and assembled the whole community on the first day of the second month. Every man of twenty years or more then declared his name and lineage according to clan and ancestral house."

Keeping accurate records of genealogies was very important to the Jews. The Jewish historian, Josephus, wrote that Public Records* recorded genealogies from the oldest to the youngest, and Private Records went from the youngest back to the oldest, and these genealogies were passed down through the generations. This was done in part in order to prevent unqualified persons from gaining positions through their ancestry. See Ezra 2:61-63, and Neh 7:63-65 where some priests were rejected because they could not prove their Levitical ancestry.

* Flavius Josephus, against Apion, Book 1:7

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Since the custom was of using male genealogies only, then how could an ancestral line of Jesus be shown through Mary?
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It appears that GOD left a convenient loophole in this law that would allow women to be included in the ancestral line if they met two stringent conditions...

1. Num 27:8, "Therefore, tell the Israelites; If a man dies without leaving a son, you shall let his heritage pass on to his daughter."
2. Num 36:6-7, "This is what the Lord commands with regard to the daughters of Salphahad: They may marry anyone they please, provided they marry into a clan of their ancestral tribe, so that no heritage of the Israelites will pass from one tribe to another, but all the Israelites will retain their own ancestral heritage."

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So now, all we have to show is that:
1. The father of Mary had no sons.
2. Mary married within her own tribe of Judah. Gen 49:8-12
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Regarding the first condition, did Mary have brothers?
We have no record of it. The Bible does not mention brothers, but it does say she had a sister.
John 19:25, "Now there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene." It is thought that the sister of Mary was Salome, the wife of Zebedee and the mother of James and John (Matthew 20:20, Mark 15:40).
Please see "The Genealogy of the Brethren", for more.

In the Jewish culture in those days, the mother who was widowed (assuming that Joseph was dead at this time) would have gone to her father, or brother, or to her other children. Apparently, her father was dead, she had no brothers, and she had no other children, so Jesus gave her to John in John 19:27.
The words of Jesus in John 19:27, and lack of evidence of male siblings, strongly suggest that the first condition was satisfied.

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The second condition is a bit more involved:
Matthew 1:1-16, "(1) The book of the origin of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the son of Abraham. (2) Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, Jacob begot Judah.....(5)...Jesse begot David the king. (6) And David the king begot Solomon of the former wife of Uriah." (Bathsheba)
This Genealogy continues and we see in verse 16, "And Jacob begot Joseph, the husband of Mary, and of her was born Jesus who is called Christ."
Notice that the descendant of David is Solomon. We shall see in Luke's genealogy, a different son of David.
Matthew clearly shows that the bloodline of Joseph does go back to the tribe of Judah, and through king David. If Jesus Christ is the Son of David, then His mother, Mary has to be also of the house of David and therefore by implication, of the tribe of Judah. As we have already seen in Romans 1:3, it could have not been said that the Son was born according to the flesh of the offspring of David unless Mary were of Davidic descent. We shall delve into this further later on.

Luke 1:26-27, "Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from GOD to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary."
We have already seen that Mary is implied as being of the house of David in Luke 1:32. If she were not of the house of David, then clearly, Jesus Christ could not have been descendant of David as do so many verses attest. She married within her tribe (by implication) and so the second condition appears to be satisfied.

Consequently, both conditions for the bloodline to continue through the female line are satisfactorily met by Mary if we can show that she is of the same tribe of Judah through David, as is her spouse, Joseph.
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Now, let us look at the evidence:
First, a review of the bloodline of Joseph with some added observations.
Saint Matthew addressed his Gospel to the Jews, who followed the Law of Moses (Mosaic Law). He wrote the genealogy of Jesus Christ in Matt 1:1-17, and he was careful to meet the legal requirements of the Mosaic Law. His was of the Public Record as explained earlier. In it he begins with Abraham and shows the line going through David and then Solomon and all the way down to Jesus Christ. Remember in verse 16, "And Jacob begot Joseph, the husband of Mary, and of her was born Jesus who is called Christ." Matthew depicts Jesus Christ as "The Messiah".
Clearly Matthew said that the blood father (begot) of Joseph was Jacob. Matthew had satisfied the Mosaic Law by showing the male ancestry of Jesus by going through Joseph instead of Mary. Keep in mind that this genealogy shows the legal, or royal, or public record, of descent and not the human descent. More evidence that Matthew shows the legal line of descent is in Matt 1:11-12 where a man named Jechonias is mentioned.
See Jer 22:28-30 regarding Jechonias, as it states, "...for there shall not be a man of his seed that shall sit on the throne of David...".

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Saint Luke has quite a different account of the genealogy of Jesus Christ. He wrote his Gospel to address the Gentiles who were not under the Mosaic Law, and for the most part were unfamiliar with it. He was also a physician, (Col 4:14). His interest, no doubt, was not in the legal aspect of the Genealogy of Jesus Christ, but of the human or natural bloodline, by depicting Jesus as the "Son of Man". Luke's Genealogy begins with Jesus Christ and goes backward in time, just the opposite of Matthew who started back and came forward. Luke's genealogy follows the custom of Private Records as explained above. Notice in Luke 3:23-38, that Luke's genealogy does go from Jesus Christ, through David, and back to Judah, continuing all the way to Adam, and then to GOD. By doing this he shows a tie between the "New Adam" (1Cor 15:45) and the first Adam. However, Luke shows the descendant of David to be Nathan (31), and not Solomon, as does Matthew. This alludes to the possibility that Luke's genealogy is for a different person other than Joseph. Let us have a closer look at verse 23 with three different Bibles.

"And Jesus Himself, when He began His work, was about thirty years of age, -being as was supposed- the Son of Joseph, the Son of Heli, the Son of Matthat."
Challoner-Rheims-Confraternity

"When Jesus began His ministry he was about thirty years of age. He was the Son, as was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat..."
New American Bible

"And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the Son of Joseph, which was the Son of Heli, which was the son of Matthat..."
King James

This verse at first reading might seem to say that we have something amiss:

1. This verse appears to say that the father of Joseph is Heli, yet in Matthew we just saw that it was Jacob. How can Joseph have two fathers?
In many places in Holy Scripture we must revert to the underlying Greek text in order to fully understand the verse. The Greek word used for "as was supposed, or, as was thought" is "Nomizo", which means:
1. To hold by custom or usage.
2. To follow by custom or usage.
3. It is the custom.
4. It is the received usage.
5. To deem, to think, to suppose.

This matter can be made clearer by interpreting the verse as:
"When Jesus began His ministry he was about thirty years of age. He was the Son (so it was thought, of Joseph) of Heli."

The underlying Greek text supports this interpretation as, "...Joseph son of Heli", in the English translation, simply reads, "...Joseph of Eli". The word 'son' before Heli, is not in the Greek text.

So in order to trace the bloodline of Jesus through Heli, we would first have to go through Mary, His mother. This shows that Heli would be the blood father of Mary, and the father in law of Joseph. Even though the name of Mary is not listed, in order to comply with Jewish custom, it is certainly implied.

Matthew 1:15, shows that Matthan is the father of Jacob, and Luke 3:23-24, show that Matthat was the father of Heli. It is not known if Matthan and Matthat are the same person. If they are the same person, that would indicate that Jacob and Heli could be brothers if they had the same mother, or half brothers if they had different mothers, or one of them could have even been adopted from the tribe of Judah. Julius Africanus (160-240) wrote in his Epistle to Aristides that Jacob and Heli were half brothers. The Bible makes no distinction between genetic birth and adoption. See 2Sam 6:23, where Michol the daughter of Saul and the wife of David (1Sam 18:27) had no children. Yet in 2Sam 21:8, it says Michol had five sons. In reality, they were adopted sons of Merob. Jacob was the genetic father of Joseph. Heli, the father of Mary, was Joseph's father in law, his legal father.

Hmmm, that didnt post like I wanted, let's try it this way

Funny how the genealogys both end with Joseph then and not Mary.
- Matthew
Christ 23 Josaphat
2 Joseph 24 Asa
4 Matthan 26 Roboam
5 Eleazar 27 Solomon
6 Eliud 28 David
7 Achim
8 Sadoc
9 Azor
10 Eliakim
11 Abiud
12 Zorobabel
13 Salathiel
14 Jechonias
16 Amon
17 Manasses
18 Ezekias
19 Achaz
20 Joatham
21 Ozias
22 Joram

-Luke
Christ 23 Neri
2 Joseph 24 Melchi
3 Heli 25 Addi
4 Matthat 26 Cosam
5 Lev 27 Elmodam
6 Melchi 28 Er
7 Janna 29 Jose
8 Joseph 30 Eliezer
9 Mattathias 31 Jorim
10 Amos 32 Matthat
11 Naum 33 Levi
12 Esli 34 Simeon
13 Nagge 35 Juda
14 Maath 36 Joseph
15 Mattathias 37 Jonan
16 Semei 38 Eliakim
17 Joseph 39 Melea
18 Juda 40 Menan
19 Joanna 41 Mattatha
20 Rhesa 42 Nathan
21 Zorobabe 43 David
22 Salathiel

Grisham,

"They each knew what the others had written."
- Really, now how was this known? Did they set down together and start writing? Were there discussions about who was going to write what part? Were there arguments like, "No, I want to write that part."

"They each put in the Gospel accounts what each felt was most important"
- So an eclipse, the dead rising, thunder&lightening would't be important. What about the time variation?

Funny how the genealogys both end with Joseph then and not Mary.
- Matthew Luke
Christ 23 Josaphat Christ 23 Neri
2 Joseph 24 Asa 2 Joseph 24 Melchi
3 Jacob 25 Abia 3 Heli 25 Addi
4 Matthan 26 Roboam 4 Matthat 26 Cosam
5 Eleazar 27 Solomon 5 Lev 27 Elmodam
6 Eliud 28 David [NOTE] 6 Melchi 28 Er
7 Achim 7 Janna 29 Jose
8 Sadoc 8 Joseph 30 Eliezer
9 Azor 9 Mattathias 31 Jorim
10 Eliakim 10 Amos 32 Matthat
11 Abiud 11 Naum 33 Levi
12 Zorobabel 12 Esli 34 Simeon
13 Salathiel 13 Nagge 35 Juda
14 Jechonias 14 Maath 36 Joseph
15 Josias 15 Mattathias 37 Jonan
16 Amon 16 Semei 38 Eliakim
17 Manasses 17 Joseph 39 Melea
18 Ezekias 18 Juda 40 Menan
19 Achaz 19 Joanna 41 Mattatha
20 Joatham 20 Rhesa 42 Nathan
21 Ozias 21 Zorobabe 43 David
22 Joram 22 Salathiel


"As to the immaculate conception, an angel appeared in a dream to Joseph AND appeared to Mary to announce her pregnancy. The angel appeared to Mary first and then Joseph"

-Where does it say both? I guess Mark and John didn't think this was important enough to write about then?

According to Matthew:
"But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost"

Accoding to Luke
"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

"As to the Council of Nicea no books failed to make the cut. They just affirmed books already being used into one volume."
- After some research, I will concede the point on the counsel of nicea. It was convened to decide who and what Jesus was. According to the argument, was he a created being, or was he a living god. So what exactly what Jesus was, is decided by men (What if the wrong decision was made here, oh crap, you may have been worshipping the wrong way!!!!!). Another note, in the research on this, I learned there was a huge amount of violence from each side in the argument.
"The dispute in mind was Arianism, which was the belief that Jesus was a created being. The famous phrase they were disputing was, "There was when He was not." This was in reference to Jesus and was declared heretical by the council and thus resulted in the following words about Christ in the Nicene Creed: "God from true God…from the Father…not made." It was determined by the council that Christ was homoousia, meaning, one substance with the Father."

"I am not going to get into a fruitless discussion with you about the intricacies of Jewish timekeeping"
- You are the one who brought the Jewish calender into the argument. It is not my fault that you did not do your research. You see Grisham, I will research both sides because I am not scared to. If your right, I will concede that point just as I did with the Nicea bit. You sir, refuse to because your scared to. Much as with MK 16:18.

Richard Thomas,
You know for someone who objects to judging, you sure do a lot of judging by appearances regarding our website. And for a soldier, you act surprisingly like a coward. You did not answer ONE question I asked. Are you offended by the military references in the Bible? There are numerous ones. If you've read the Bible as you've claimed then quote a few. In the book of Jude it says, " On some have compassion, making a distinction, but others save with fear: pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garments defiled by the flesh." So why do you advocate a compassion only message if the Bible says use compassion and fear? The lack of the fear of God is EXACTLY why our society is so corrupt and evil. I don't really care though if the site offends you.

Westex4955,
I am not going to get into a fruitless discussion with you about the intricacies of Jewish timekeeping. Some things were not mentioned in some Gospels because they were not necessarliy repeating themselves. They each put in the Gospel accounts what each felt was most important. They each knew what the others had written. Some things were repeated but some were not. As to the immaculate conception, an angel appeared in a dream to Joseph AND appeared to Mary to announce her pregnancy. The angel appeared to Mary first and then Joseph. So, the answer is, both. The differences in genealogy is that one is the geneaology of Joseph and the other one is of Mary so naturally there would be differences but they both trace back to King David.
As to the Council of Nicea no books failed to make the cut. They just affirmed books already being used into one volume.
Since you are a deist and do ot believe in the Bible you really don't have a clue as to what the creator wants or expects, do you? You have no documentation to go on. Just your own fantasies.

Mr. Vela,
I was not posting to you and I could not care less about your opinion or insults so rant by yourself. Good day, sir.

Dave (which is what name you used when introducing yourself to me), here are the details you asked for.

I'm leaving out 99% of the "details" because they're graphic.

I used to work at an adult book store (like you didn't know... "what kind of store?" you wrote, like United or Walmart appears on your "prayer map" rofl).

Summer before last, you would come in, buy a ticket, lube, and sometimes a bottle of isobutyl nitrate, and go back to where people would hang out to watch dirty movies and "entertain" themselves.

Would you like MORE details than that?

I'm not the only one who remembers you dude.

Mr. Grisham

First I just want to say, yes I have read the bible. coverf to cover 3 times. I find alot of comfort and solice from reading the bible. It helps me to understand and balance my life as a soldier, husband and father. Nowhere in my life (that I can recall) have I seen any Church or religious organisation make use of Military references as a way to recruit and bring people to their place of worship. Your use of such measures is frightening and it casts a bad light on your organisation as well as the armed forces. First impressions are imporant and lasting. Your site looks more like a KKK recruiting station or some right wing Militia site than a Group of Christians spreading the word of God.

Noone can live up to the standards that God has set for us. Its a shame really because the standards are actually quite easy. Its our own, stupidity, greed and lust for power that make it so hard. I just think you can do more good by "Displaying" a positive Christian message. Ever think of that? I still maintain that your site is a slap in the face to the men and women of the Armed Forces. It has nothing to do with standards. Youre a militant wannabe with a twisted message that you use for your own gain as you hide behind the bible.

So you were in the Army for 6 years? Good for you. Youre a civilian now. Act like it.

The site offends me, plain and simple.

Im sorry but your agrument doesnt hold water with me. In my opinion, the comparisons you make are far from what God intended his message to be. You can say what you like about me. I know where my heart is. You want to make change? Try doing it with love, compassion and forgiveness. This will be my last post here. You and your twisted beliefs are not worth my time.

To All Commenting;

I'm pretty sure that I have said this before, regardless of how much you argue scripture with Mr. Grisham, he will never acknowledge the scripture you post and will say something completely irrelevant to your argument. He argues through passion, rather than logic, and in my opinion does not account for any other opinion than his own.

To those arguing with Grisham, save your breath for someone who will sit down and listen to your side of the argument and actually take it in, and argue with logic rather than someone who will decide automatically that you are wrong, because you are not of the same faith or ideology. It is ridiculous to argue with a brick wall and Grisham is a wall. I still agree with Ms. Harders argument and would be considered a brick wall myself sometimes. But sometimes we have to break.

Grisham I wish you would get over the pride you carry, because it can destroy you from within.

After reading these posts by Grisham, maybe I believe that his group is even more like the article states and after reading Mein Kampf you would understand. For those following this debate, take the time to decide for yourself, read books, watch documentaries question people around you. One documentary that I find interesting in particular is called "Jesus Camp", which in my opinion will make your hair stand on end.

As for your last comment Grisham for me, I am not in affiliation with the Swinger's but after arguing with you, I'd much rather be with them than you.

Thank you all for your time. I will not be commenting after this, so Grisham do what you want, but know that I will not respond. You are no longer worth my time, as I have better things to do.

Tim

Grisham,

Check the definition of an atheist compared to a Deist.

But onto the topic at hand,

"They had scribes that wrote scripture and they had multiple layers of double/triple checking in their copying of scripture. It was VERY slow but VERY accurate. The Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in 1948-1954 found the entire book of Isaiah and other partial books of the Bible" - Who wrote the original?

"This is why there are slight differences in the Gospel accounts."- Slight?
-Some of this I could believe, but not all. Hard to miss earthquakes, days turning to night, the saints rising. I would also believe that while their "master" is being crucified, they could at least be accurate about the time not 3 hours difference (half hour I could understand, maybe even an hour, but 3?). And then we have the immaculate conception....who did the angel talk to, Mary or Joseph?

Hard to mess up a family tree too. There is no opinion, or witnessing to that. Strictly fact. So who's genealogy is the right one, Matthew or Luke? Do I need to post the family tree ?

"Jesus was three days in the earth as was calculated by Jewish time. Their day began at 6:00 each evening not at midnight as ours does. Their months only have 30 days each. No more, no less".
-I would check your research if I were you. "A Jewish-calendar day does not begin at midnight, but at either sunset (you said 6pm) or when three medium-sized stars should be visible, depending on the religious circumstance. Sunset marks the start of the 12 night hours, whereas sunrise marks the start of the 12 day hours. This means that night hours may be longer or shorter than day hours, depending on the season. Note that in a regular year the numbers 30 and 29 alternate; a complete year is created by adding a day to Heshvan, whereas a deficient year is created by removing a day from Kislev. The alteration of 30 and 29 (You said 30 days, no more no less) days ensures that when the year starts with a new moon, so does each month"

"The Bible has been VERY accurately transcribed over the centuries. Remember, these people believed this was the Word of God Himself. So, they were very careful and had multiple layers of accountability and back checking. These were professional scribes who did this work. That’s all they did for a living."
-Once again, who wrote the original?

"As to your referral to voting on books of scripture, you are most likely referring to the Council of Nicea (spelling?)in 325"
-And who decided what books were allowed? How many books did not make the cut?

"And do not place too much value on worldly intelligence. There is a vast difference between intelligence and wisdom. It took intelligence to build the atomic bomb but it takes wisdom not to wipe out the human race with those things. The world is not suffering for lack of intelligence. It is suffering for lack of wisdom."
-I place my wisdom on the fact of common sense and reason, just like my creator expects me to do. I refuse to place it on mysticism and apparitions. The Greeks and Romans had their religion too, and it was replaced. Christianity and Deism will be replaced too. Remember, you owe your ability to protest and worship as you see fit to those "foolish" Deists and their wisdom and to the soldiers that you slammed in your reply to Thomas.

"God protects his word"
-Much like allah protects his? As Norm said above, how long before you attempt to become a martyr? You already had your son take a hit. How long before you attempt to force someone to "join you or feel the consequences"? I'm not just talking about you physically harming someone, but rather by blackmail and coercion. I can still picture you being a shooter at an abortion clinic, or since we don't have one of those here, maybe the "swingers" club your hung up on. Remember, this is the way of the islamic extremists, the same way as the christian extremists. Each has their beliefs, but when you remove the beliefs it all boils down to the same thing "you don't believe like I do so I am going to hurt you".

Thankfully we don't have Deist extremists....goes against what the creator expects of us.

Westex4955,
Jesus was three days in the earth as was calculated by Jewish time. Their day began at 6:00 each evening not at midnight as ours does. Their months only have 30 days each. No more, no less. They are not on the Gregorian ( spelling?) calender as we are. They were more on an agrarian calender.Also, the Jews calculated a partial as a whole one. They were not as picky about the exatitudes of time as our western culture is today.
They had scribes that wrote scripture and they had multiple layers of double/triple checking in their copying of scripture. It was VERY slow but VERY accurate. The Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in 1948-1954 found the entire book of Isaiah and other partial books of the Bible. The book of Isaiah, since it was wholly intact, was directly translated and compare to a modern King James Bible and was found to be 99.8% accurate with only slight differences in spellings of non critical words that had no impact on context. The Bible has been VERY accurately transcribed over the centuries. Remember, these people believed this was the Word of God Himself. So, they were very careful and had multiple layers of accountability and backchecking. These were professional scribes who did this work. That's all they did for a living.
As to your referral to voting on books of scripture, you are most likely referring to the Council of Nicea (spelling?)in 325. They simply compiled books for the New Testament. The Old Testament had been compiled by the Jews 400 years before Christ was born, the last book being Malachi.The council simply compiled writings from the Apostles that churches had already been using for years and just put them in ONE book for the sake of convienence and solidarity in the faith. God protects His Word. The Gnostics were trying to compete with the actual New Testament through false writings so this compilation was also a tool to combat those gnostic writings from being eventually filtered into the faith. The devil was trying to use the old tactic of "divide and conquer" so the Christians ( particularly Constantine of Rome) were trying to compile the scriptures in a way that made that division more difficult. They were successful as the gnostic writings have ever since then been considered heresy.

Wetex4955,
If four different men witness the same accident at the same intersection but each on his own corner , their accounts will agree on many things but will differ on some things because of their angle of perception.This does not mean they are mistaken or that any of them are wrong. It actually enhances the account since it provides a more accurate recording of the event. One may concentrate on the physics of the crash, the direction, dicriptions of vehicles, etc. Another may focus on the actions of passerbys or the drivers and passengers afterwards. Still another may concentrate on the emergency response personnel like ambulance and police. Still the last may concentrate on the weather and timing of the crash and other environmental factors. They are all being totally truthful in their descriptions and they are similar in their descriptions of the outcome but each personalizes the account based on what they each individually witnessed from their perspective both from differing physical angles AND differing personal angles. The Gospels are written in this way because they are not dry physical descriptions of Jesus Christ but very human stories designed to reach out to the very humans God is trying to save. God is relational and the best way for Him to describe His human Son relating to other human beings is in very personal human terms. This is why there are slight differences in the Gospel accounts.But there are all also true. It provides a very human story relating a 360 degree description of actual events but not just from a physical perspective but an emotional and relational perspective as well.
A deist is an atheist. The Bible says that he who rejects the Son, rejects the Father as well. So, deism, in the eyes of God is a form of atheism as it rejects Christ. I used to be a Deist so I understand all the writings and arguments as I have used them myself in the past. I was wrong then as all deists are now. I do not need to research their arguments.I have already seen them in years past.
And do not place too much value on worldly intelligence. There is a vast difference between intelligence and wisdom. It took intelligence to build the atomic bomb but it takes wisdom not to wipe out the human race with those things. The world is not suffering for lack of intelligence. It is suffering for lack of wisdom.

Jeebus Commander Grisham, Every time you post you confirm my words describing you and your interpretation of the Bible. It's almost hard to believe that someone so out of touch with reality is walking among normal people and actualy believes he is righteous. Mr. Grisham, I have said it before and I'll say it again, You need serious professional counseling. Man, you are beginning to slip deeper and deeper into a religious fanaticism that is Exactly akin to a fanatical Islamic extremist. A Muslim radical believes he is serving and acting for "His God" and he is following a line that leads to his reward as a Martyr. Are you headed to become a Martyr for your "God". At what point will your twisted belief and frustration point you towards a violent act. Where is the line between reality and irrational behaviour. You are lost in a Forest where no one else sees the trees. My God is a God of Love. Not a Judgemental, Revenge seeking, Hate Monger who threatens you if you don't submit. I promise You will be stopped! First by Man, and then by God in Rage at a Fool using his Word and Name to gain public notice. Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock...

Grisham,

One point to clarify, Paine was not an atheist, but a Deist like me, like Franklin, like Jefferson and several others. I base my arguments on their intelligence because theirs far surpasses my own and yours especially. I had assumed that you would be reasonable enough to research, but as usual, you base your argument on "because "god" says I cant".

Explain to me why the gospels of Matthew and Luke differ in their genealogy's of Jesus.

What the church calls the immaculate conception is not so much as mentioned in the books ascribed to Mark and John, and is differently related in Matthew and Luke. The former says the angel appeared to Joseph; the latter says it was to Mary. Why are they different?

Amongst the gospels, the accounts that are given of the circumstances that they tell us attended the crucifixion are differently related in these four books (the gospels) Why?

The gospels also vary in their story of the resurrection, why?

If four men are eye-witnesses and ear-witnesses to a scene, they will, without any concert between them, agree as to time and place when and where that scene happened, so why are all the above situations different?

Remember, at the time those books were written there was no printing, and consequently there could be no publication, otherwise than by written copies, in which man might change as he wants, and call them originals. Who is to say what the original actually said?

Also remember that the chapters in the bible were once scattered around, and that the christians voted on what books they wanted, why?

Who is the author of the bible? It cannot be the gospels themselves because of the varying stories, and of course they are written in the 3rd person. So if "god" placed the thoughts in a man's head (much as a creative writer uses his imagination) why the varying accounts. It would seem that "god" in his perfect being would be able to get the stories straight.

Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." But it happens, awkwardly enough, that Christ, according to their own account, was but one day and two nights in the grave; about 36 hours, instead of 72. Once again, the story varies, why?

If YOU cannot research this let me know and I will do the work for you and will post my comparisons, but surely a man as scholarly as yourself has reasonable explanations for these variations.

Richard Thomas,
I too was once a soldier in the United States Army. I spent three years as a TOW anti-tank missile gunner and three more as a battalion aid-station medic.I have served my nation. But my allegiance is to the Army of Christ first.Now, you were offended by our use of the term "Special Forces of Spiritual Warfare" You were offended as if God or His soldiers could not live up to this standard? As if the Special Forces were so "Special" that God's men of war could not claim that name because it is above God or His purpose? Whom do you serve first? The U.S. Army or God? If the military references on our website offend you do the military references in the Word of God offend you as well? Perhaps you do not actually read your Bible? You just attend church? Is that the only scripture you get? Do you spend more time practicing to be a good soldier for America or a good soldier for God? The reason you misunderstood our website is because you do not read your Bible. The reason you can equate soldiers for Christ with the jihad of the demonic religion of Islam is because you lack discernment. You lack discernment because you do not know the Word of God. If you do not know God's Word can you know God?

Westex4955,
" The fool says in his heart there is no God."
Psalm 14:1
God says those who do not believe in Him are fools whether they are founders of nations or not. And you have not argued scripture. You have quoted none for me to defend. You have tried to let others make your case for you.( Mr. Paine) But I will not go that route because I am not witnessing to Mr. Paine, he is dead and if he did not serve Christ, he is in hell. You still have the chance to repent and serve Christ.I will not use your ungodly links.I will not pollute my eyes by reading that dung. Now, if YOU ( not some website or dead foolish atheist) want to discuss specific scripture and challenge me on it I will respond.

Mr. Thomas, your post was very informative and to the point. You were accurate in your descriptions. Jeebus Commander Grisham uses the reference to the armed forces because basically he himself is a coward. We all are aware of his daily occupation and he more or less has one bullet he carries in his left shirt pocket. In other words, you are not dealing with a rational man, but instead a fanatical zealot. A self-annointed leader and judge of "Man" and anything he feels is "Wrong". Mr. Grisham is a hurt, lonely man who is now realizing he blew it. His craving for publicity falsely empowered him to reach for more and more exposure. He never realized the people he was harming would strike back. But those citizens are patient, resiliant and determined. His coming destruction will not only destroy his "Jim Jones" ideals, but will injure those fools who chose to stand by and/or follow this Pathetic Cartoon of a Man. Tick-Tock Tick-Tock...

I have always made a point to be as objective and open minded as possible. I try to look at a topic from all sides and make informed decisions based on fact. I began watching this topic a few days ago after a friend sent me the link to the story. It is my opinion that David Grisham and his followers have taken their interpretation of God's word and twisted it into something dark and evil. I wanted to stay out of this discussion but when I finally got curious enough to visit the organisations website, I was absolutley floored by what I saw.

I am a soldier in the United States Army. I am very proud of this great nation of ours. I am proud to wear the uniform, and fight for the freedoms we all have. Freedoms that millions of my countrymen before me have fought and died to preserve. Even as much as it pains me to say it, I fight and put myself in harms way so Grisham and his followers can practice "their" religion freely.

The thing that bothers me the most though is how Grishams organisation is making wide and strong use of Military Graphics on their site. It also concerns me that they make such references verbally to their organisation being the Special Forces of spiritual warfare?! This organisation has no right to compare themselves in any way shape or form to the Armed forces and the men and women that defend them and their crazy ideals.

Countries, Societies and whole races of people have taken God's word and distorted it and twisted it into a thing of evil designed to oppress and persecute people and "Force" them to "Convert" to a way of life different from their own. What is worse is that they often used the might of a "Christian Army" to keep the peace and keep people in line.

Please note.

The word Jihad is perhaps the most widely used word in the Middle East. It is the battle cry for an entire group of people that claim to wage a "Holy War" on the western world and purge the earth of all infidels! Jihad has become a cry for war. So where is my point going?

Jihad: "struggle in the way of God" or "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society.

This simple and infinitely interpreted noun is responsible for thousands and thousands of deaths all over the world, and yet the essence of it in its purest form has nothing to do with what it is being used for today!

Maybe I am wrong, but it sounds very clear to me that Mr. Grisham and his organisation are very much out in left field. It sickens me to think that I took an oath to protect and serve such obviously misguided people. your website is a slap in the face to every man and woman that wears a uniform. You make me sick.

Oh and before you begin slamming me like eveyone else here, know this. I am a Christian, husband and father of two. I am a member of a strong Church community and am proud to call myself a Christian and an American. It is my opinion that the best thing a Christian can do is to spread the word of God and be stewards of his teachings. God is our Judge. We are all judged in the end by God for what we do here. It is not our place to judge people for what they believe or do. I dont judge people. I respect everyone regardless of their views or beliefs. I swore an oathe to God and this country to defend and protect those beleifs whether I agree with them or not.

Mr. Grisham and his organisation need to stop being enforcers of God's word and start being Stewards of it!

See, I attempt to argue other scripture and as usual you ignore it. I post links about it and you ignore it. Now you see why I hammer you on Mk 16:18. You are a petty man with blinders who doesn't care about a rational debate. You sir are a irrational petty man. I have done as you suggested even and you ignore that. You dared me and I did, now are you willing to accept the challenge or are you just going to revert to your work of fiction. Paine did write about the mistakes in the bible, and the hypocrisy between the writings of the gospels.
I am so glad to hear that you think the founders of our nation were fools.

Westex 4955,
I could not care less about man's word and I did not read 99% of what you posted because it is irrelevant. I care about GOD'S Word. I will not respond to anything worldly or fleshly except with the Word of God. And I did not call you Satan anymore than Jesus called Peter Satan. Peter is not Satan and neither are you. Jesus was speaking to Satan himself and so was I. I was speaking to the spirit of Satan influencing your speech. The spirit behind you. The Bible says " Do not lean on your own understanding." The age of reason is the age of fools.

kiki_couple,
Jesus never had a building. A building is good for discipling but it is not necessary. Jesus preached everywhere. The highways and byways, the synagogues (buildings), fields, lakeshores,etc. Jesus preached everywhere He went because the Gospel of Jesus Christ has the right and the obligation to preach to ALL the world, not just the part of the world that chooses to enter a building. Jesus said that you don't put a lamp under a basket (building) but the lamp is to shine its light into all the room (world).The failure of the average church to preach in the streets is the very reason the devil is overtaking those streets and our culture. The Gospel of Christ was meant to DOMINATE the culture and cannot do so if it restricts itself to only buildings. I am working on illegal issues. The illegal issues that violate God's law. The supreme law.

Grisham,

A few quotes from Paine's the "Age of Reason". Remember, this was one of the founders of our government.

"It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive any thing more destructive to morality than this?"

"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent kind; and though similar systems of morality had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before; by the Quakers since; and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by any."

"It is upon this plain narrative of facts, together with another case I am going to mention, that the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and extravagance, is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients."

"Whence arose all the horrid assassinations of whole nations of men, women, and infants, with which the Bible is filled, and the bloody persecutions and tortures unto death, and religious wars, that since that time have laid Europe in blood and ashes — whence rose they but from this impious thing called revealed religion, and this monstrous belief that God has spoken to man? The lies of the Bible have been the cause of the one, and the lies of the Testament of the other"

I'm not going to quote all, but I did quote what caught my attention. I cannot compete with Paine's wording so I will suggest you start reading the Age of Reason, Part II, Section 14 (http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/reason30.htm). This is where Paine starts finding errors in the new testament. Prior to this he works with the old testament, but you don't place much faith in the old testament so I'm not going to start with it. Since you have no legitimate answer to Mk 16:18. And I will dig out Tindal if I need to since I know you won't read anything I suggest. Maybe a few quotes from the Jefferson Bible even.

I suggest you read Tindal, it is a tough read due to the way the original is written, but I have faith that you can do it.

And just so you know, I was tickled that you called me satan, you got a good laugh outta me on that one.

there you go skipping verses again and reading out of context... it speaks more on attitude along with self examination... but you dont believe you have a problem with yours.. again you could do much more good by getting yourself a building and letting people come to you.. are you afraid no one will come.. might be because you are not as good as YOU THINK YOU ARE. You like controversy and the Bible does not.. you like to argue scriptures and again the Bible does not.. you like to be in the news and have yourself on tv but the Bible clearly states to not let the right hand know what the left hand doith. Take a step back, examine what you are doing and the way you do it and think .... is this REALLY what God wants.. again work on illegal issues and quit worrying about moral issues ...

Grisham,

As usual you avoid the hard questions. I still think you should read the writings of Matthew Tindal and Thomas Paine, but of course you won't because of the blinders you wear.

RJ,
I have no clue where you work or what you are talking about. Maybe you can provide details? What store are you referring to? It sounds like fiction to me.

kiki_couple,
I have read 1 John. It is a book that is heavily filled with scriptures that are used for self examination to see if one is in the faith. Examples:
" Now by this we know that we know Him, that we keep His commandments. He who says 'I know Him' and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him."
1 John 2:3-4
"Now in this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest; He who does not practice righteousness is not of God nor is he who does not love his brother."
1 John 3:10
There are many others in 1 John like these. I suggest YOU read it along with the rest of the Bible. It is obvious from your insult-laden post that you are not reading the Bible. You may insult me all you like but your opinion means NOTHING. I value the Word of God so if you want to correct me you will need to do so from scripture or it will be ignored.

Whatever, Jeebus Commander Grisham? What a Come Back. Just Hide behind your Twisted Scripture. Tick-Tock Tick-Tock... We both know you're time is coming to an end. You know the truth is that you have failed and you are now trying to save face before it all becomes clear to everyone who you really are and it all comes crumbling down. There are more and more individuals who are preparing to bring you and your Poser Posse to account. You'll soon be dancing to State Civil and Federal Civil Rights causes you brought on yourself. It's taken almost a year, but the false prophet you are will be laid waste in the Local and National Media and you will be exposed as a Fake and a Charlatan. But hey, just keep thinking I've just been talking bilge this whole time. It's all just Talk on my end. Or Maybe Not. You little man are in for a Very Rude Awakening! Tick-Tock Tick-Tock...

Alright, enough is enough.
Mr. Grisham: Ted Haggerty much? I finally saw a picture of you.
I used to wait on you when you would come into my store, and my store is on your prayer map. And you bought tickets for "back there." (Your nervously spoken words).

Ring a bell?

Is this why all the hatred? Reform yourself so now NOBODY can have any 'vices?'

Dude: anyone who took at least one psychology course ever in their life can see what's going on.

Still thinking about the thrill of going "back there?"

You're a walking cliche and in major need of a hobby.

sorry.. I meant read first JOHN not James

Mr Grisham.. I have seen churches torn down and apart because of preachers like you... NOT BECAUSE you think it was a bad church so you protested or prayed against it.... but because I have often said the worst thing for a church to have is not to be without out a preacher ... but to have the wrong preacher.... every thing you believe is only your beliefs. You continue to lead your flock in the wrong direction... get yourself a building and let people come to you.. you can catch more bees with honey. .. dont start on the man and his prodical son... read first James and check your attitude.. you can keep reading out of context all you want to make things fit the way you want.. but reality is you too will stand before God one day and you too will answer for the things you do that are not pleasing to him... I will not argue with you but I will tell you that you do not know everything even if you think you do.. take a stand for things that illegal and let God deal with the things that e moral.. there are plenty of things you can protest against that you could get your name in the paper for... stop drug use and abuse in the city.. heck you might even get a key to the city for that.. and quit worrying about legal issues that do not concern you !!!!!!

Norm,
Whatever.

Grisham,

Why should I discuss other verses when you cannot prove or disprove this one? If this one is false then that means there are other ones that are false. All you can say is that you refuse to prove it because "god" says that you can't. That gives you an easy way out doesn't it?

Remember, in a scientific experiment a person is only supposed to test one variable at a time, so I am testing one verse at a time. This is the first one. We will get to the others if this one is proven.

**Attention** **Attention** Jeebus Commander Grisham, THERE WAS NO PARTY SCHEDULED TONIGHT!! oops! Gotcha! We couldn't help noticing your Clown Patrol Goon Wagons scattered across the Parking Lot. Very Funny sight to gander at. Lots of laughs for the Whole Family. And others Watching of course. Oh, and last week, when you thought nobody showed...
...oops, Wrong again. Hook. Line & Sinker. Tick-Tock Tick-Tock

Westex 4955,
You have not even begun a debate. All you've done is harp on one scripture that you are obsessed with about drinking poison. I suppose that means you are incapable of discussing any other scripture? Can you? I'll even let YOU pick the scripture. Do you have the courage to accept that challenge? We'll see.

westex4955,
"Get theee behind me, Satan."

Georgia Romig

Thank you :)

Ahhh....so you give up, outstanding.

Let me know when you can hold a rational debate and can substantiate your points with factual information. So far all I have heard is rhetoric, hypocrisy, and an opinionated argument based on personal opinion (which is based on a book written by man). You sir, are merely a man who is so wrapped up in your own self that you will not listen to reason. You have threatened the so called "swingers club", you have incited riots, you have screamed through a bullhorn that people are going to hell. You are doing more damage than good Grisham. You are turning people away from the christianity that you claim to follow. Glad to see you think I am the devil, that might hurt me a bit if I believed in the devil.

This article nails you to a "T", Ms. Harder did leave out one similarity between you and Hitler though, narcissism.

westex4955,
I'm not going to drink poison, O.K.? That does not mean the Bible is false and that does not mean I'm not Christian. Paul was bitten by a poisonous snake in the scriptures and he was not affected. He did not look for the snake, he did not play with it. It found him. Jesus said, " You shall not tempt the Lord your God." He said that in response to the devil telling Him to jump off the roof of the Temple saying a scripture would prove that Jesus was the Messiah because one scripture says that "He shall give His angels charge over Him lest He should dash His foot against a stone" The devil was doing what YOU are doing. Basically saying to perform an act as proof of His authenticity since scripture says God would protect Him. But Jesus quoted another scripture that said, " You shall not tempt the Lord your God." You are acting like the devil so I quoted you the same scripture Jesus did to Satan as His response. I will not perform a circus act for you any more than Jesus would not for the devil.So that subject is closed. If you don't like it or agree with it then tough.If you have anything else to discuss or contend with about God's Word then I'm all ears.

Westtex,

The double comment is deleted. You're welcome. :)

Crap....double post, hate it when I jump the gun and do that....moderator, can you delete the 9:43 post please?

Grisham,

Just as it was written that any true believer can do those certain things. So basically this means that part of the bible is true and some of it is well.....false, rt? I mean if it was all true then you could do as the book says. Of course as the book states, you would have to be a true follower. That leaves 2 choices as I see it, either you are not a true believer and are not doing as you are supposed to, or the book is false. Which is it Grisham?

Westex4955,
It is written" You shall not tempt the Lord your God."

Tick-Tock Tick-Tock... Time is not on your side little man. Here on Earth you're a parody of the Christiian fanatic. In Heaven, you anger those in which whose name you portray Faith. You will face God someday and you will account for everything you did in "His Name". All the people hurt and damaged by your actions will testify to your Blind, Evil, Dark and Demented ways. "The Shadows of Night Hide and Wait for the Day To Fade Into Darkness." Tick-Tock Tick-Tock...

Debate scripture? I have debated scripture with you and you cannot perform the one verse that I asked you to do. According to what I have read, any true follower should be able to perform those actions without harm. So come on Grisham, are you a true believer or not? Prove it.

I see the swingers have shown up here. Funny, they didn't show up Saturday night. If you want to debate about scripture, FROM SCRIPTURE, I'm all ears. But if you just want to whine and make fleshly excuses for adultery, I will not respond. Have fun arguing among yourselves. Good day all.

Hey there Grisham, I already new you were not all there and after reading all about you I have come to the conclusion that you need help... why not set all your brain washed followers up to pray for you.. you defiantly need it... You quote a lot of Bible verses but like so many other wanna be big time Preachers... you read out of context. you have a habit of trying to make things sound right as long as its YOUR way and beliefs... as I told you in person one day.. you do NOT know all and your brain washing ways are not the right way... you say on your web sight that you do not protest but when you hold signs on the side of the road and tell people that they are going to hell.. thats protesting... and yes you tell people that because you have told me more than once... your intimidating does not work.. and as I told you in person.. WE ALL will stand before God one day and yes that includes you to... 2 wrongs dont make a right and every thing you do is most defiantly not right... you also say you hold prayer at these places on your map but I have never seen you pray at all... you are to busy taking pictures and invading peoples privacy... Re-read the Bible and try to lead your followers biblical y and not as you think is right... this is NOT a my way or high way world... more to follow..

Nope, all of mine are here. Grisham, you gettin comments kicked off here like you did on the Amarillo Independent? Oh wait, they just kicked you completely off didn't they.

Hey, everyone, Web Editor here. Just letting you know that a few comments to this article may have accidentally been caught in our spam filter and therefore were not posted.

Please try posting them again. Thank you!

Ahh, the Sad little man just keeps it up. Are you aware Mr. Grisham that during your Saturday night Cow Punchers display that you were observed by several Non-Swingers who came within Five yards of your Clown Patrol? That you and your group of Hate mongers are now identified by a supportive Third Party who are not affiliated with the "Swingers Club" and are watching you very closely. Are you awre there were Civil Rights Lawyers attending and Observing everything you attempted? Are you aware that the gathering you "PROTESTED" was not even a Swingers event, but a Private Invitation only Cookout. YOU were set-up and took the bait. We have identified your Two-Faced friends and know quite allot Mr. Grisham. Welcome back. Oh, And Have Fun Saturday if you show at the club. Wonderful surprises await you. Also tell your group member we appreciate, but no longer need his assistance anymore. Nice Guy though. Tick-Tock Tick-Tock....

Ahhh, there you are. Welcome back. I've actually missed your tantrums.

Yes, I may have gotten involved in this argument but that was due to you. The only business I am in is your little cults, strictly due to the way you are acting. You scream freedom of speech but you will not allow the others to gather as they have the right to. I cannot stand a person who is self righteous, belligerent, arrogant, and, basically, an attention hound. You incite people, you scream through a bullhorn, you get in people faces just to get your face in the paper or on TV.

As to you becoming a minister, I find that laughable. As I posted above, anyone can get to be a minister by taking a class on the net. Just like anyone can form a church. I hear the church of the fsm is doing quite well.

Earth day is a day to celebrate the wonderful planet that God gave us. Do you not like the planet or God's gift? Yes, some people have chosen to use it to worship to their religion, but why protest the day? Why protest them? They have that rt.

And yes you do tell people they are going to hell. Hard to miss that over a bull horn at a park, even with the music being loud (and before you start, no, I'm not gay, I was there working). I liked the way your bouncer would edge closer anytime someone got close to ya.

Westex4955,
You are a hypocrite. You say I should stay out of others' business then you stick your nose in mine. That is hypocrisy.

As a few things to note here....
Anyone can be ordained a minister and create a church. Search the net for classes. Also do a search for the church of the fsm. I may become a minister , looks like it can be done in about 5 minutes.


Grisham, if you do not know anyone's future then why don't ya stay out of their business.

Still pickin on the "swingers" I see. Was your membership rejected again?

Ahhhh...your back. I have missed gettin under your skin....you have been ignorin me on the AGN.

Ashley,
NO ONE'S actions except those by Jesus Christ cause anyone to go to heaven. Men do not nor can they earn heaven by actions or works. It was earned by Christ on the cross and is a free gift by the grace of God through faith. That is what the Bible says. ALL men have earned hell (Romans " For the WAGES of sin is death)Wages are paid for what you have earned. John 3:18 says all men are already condemned to hell by default of their sins. Without Christ this is where we all naturally end up. That is why Jesus SAVES us, because we are already lost without Him. I never tell anyone they are going to hell because I cannot know the future. I can however warn them that they are in a natural state of condemnation without the redemption of Jesus Christ. The Bible also says that if you are saved it is evidenced by obedience to the commandments of God. That you practice righteousness. Because you are born again as a new creature in Christ and you have crucified your flesh and walk in the spirit. This is what Jesus meant in Matthew chapter 7 when He said " You will know them (hypocrites) by their fruits." Their "fruits" being their obedience or disobedience to the Lord. Their salvation will bear fruit worthy of repentance and will not be just lip service. Hypocrites say they serve God (like the Pharisees)but in works they deny Him. Walking in deliberate sin is the sign of a hypocrite and Jesus consistently rebuked hypocrites. We can call people hypocrites to their faces just as Jesus did. But we cannot and I do not ever tell anyone they are going to hell. I can tell them what road they're on now but only God knows if they will change course between now and the end of their life. Ezekiel 3:17-21 commands us to warn the wicked and Malachi 3:18 says we are to discern between those who serve God and those who don't.

Grisham you lie I know for fact you tell people they are going to jail.

By the way no one else's action cause one to go to hell or heaven but their own...keep that in mind.

Becc,
I will address your comments by number, as you have listed them;

1. I was involved in an affair when I was 22 years old, back in the early 80's. Long before I got saved. I have been born again and that sin, as well as many others, has been forgiven. The Apostle Paul tortured, imprisoned, and murdered Christians before he came to Christ and that in no way destroys the truth he spoke later about brotherly love.

2. I will be officially ordained as a Pastor at the end of September. I have completed my discipleship training and will be ordained in Daytona Beach Florida at RAVEN Ministries International headquarters. You will see the announcement on www.biggrace.com

3. Since 1954 there have been 35 studies done to see if there is a statistical link between medically induced abortion and the later onset of breast cancer. 27 of those studies strongly confirmed there was. The Race for the Cure is a good place to inform women of the associated risks of breast cancer and abortion since it is an awareness campaign. It makes logical sense. We fully support a cure for breast cancer. The only thing better is not getting it in the first place and the information on the link between abortion and breast cancer might save someone from getting it and thus their life. Women have the right to know ALL the risks. Not just the politically correct ones.

4.Earth Day is a sacred day for many earth based (idolatrous) religions such as Paganism and Witchcraft. These events draw those who participate in these practices and thus make these events a good place to witness to these people for Jesus Christ.

5. We used signs for the swingers club and really nowhere else. We do not tell anyone they are going to hell. We cannot know anyone's future. We can only tell them what the Bible authorizes, that "IF" people do not repent and surrender their lives to Christ they will go to hell as the Bible promises and God cannot lie.

I have been reading this debate back and forth. And this isnt my first run in with Mr. Grisham. Lt me shed some light on this great man of Christ's Kingdom:

1. Mr. Grisham likes to throw around words like "adulterer" and "adulteress", yet, I'm sure he would like to hide the fact that he himself was involved in an affair with a married woman that lasted over a year that resulted in a divorce.

2. That Mr. Grisham is neither nor has ever been a pastor or minister or anything of the like. He works at the power plant as a security guard.

3. I trully believe that Mr. Grisham has an illness. What person with all of their mental facilities would "pray" for a breast cancer event on the beliefs that there is a link between breast cancer and abortions. Its like their taking the stand that if you have breast cancer, then you must of had an abortion. Are you kidding me? I guess then men who get breast cancer have a terrible secret to hide.

4. The belief that "Earth Day" is a form of idolotry. Earth Day was made to make everyone aware that our world is turning to crap from all of the pollution and littering. That sort of thing.

5. His idea of "witnessing" is showing up with picket signs, yelling to people that they are going to hell. Also, he was captured on film taking pictures of license plates

Seriously people, stop giving him what he wants. Both sides can pull scripture out of their butts to prove the points on both sides. Mr. Grisham seeks out boards just like this so he can spew his hate. I don't see him witnessing to the local child molesters, making their presence known to the community, or trying to eradicate the crack and meth dealers from the community. To me this is far more dangerous to us than a few consenting adults getting together every month.

The story behind the Club Chameleon Closing
As I suspected, serious jail time if they didn't close.
Fined $18,000 and six months in prison, unless they closed, than "only" 90 days in jail.
The Religious Right wins - using zoning to convict the swing club (in as an industrial area as you can be)

Club Chameleon SHUT DOWN BY CITY OF PHOENIX


As of June 11th Club Chameleon is permanently closed - MIlo convicted

The right wing agenda wins again!

Club C was the lead club in fighting for the last two years the Pheonix ordinance banning swing clubs, but that ordinance didn't bring them down.


I understand the city attorney's office is getting flooded with calls from all around the U.S. finding out exactly how they did it so they can do the same in other cities across America.


Milo, owner of Club C were convicted last week under a totally bizarre interpretation not of the Phoenix swing club ordinance but the Adult Entertainment and Hotel laws.


I was involved a year or so ago with a meeting with the Phoenix Chief of Police and head of vice, where a sort of understanding was reached that any sexual activities had to be behind inner closed locked doors in order not to be in violation.


However it seems the City of Phoenix has pulled off a coup in that under the Adult Entertainment ordinance all "entertainers" have to be licensed, not have certain contact with others etc. How this got applied to prosecute swing club owners is beyond me but that is my understanding from unconfirmed reports. In addition when they had more than six people in a closed locked room (which had room for maybe 20 people) with a bed they violated the a short-term hotel ordinance! Zoning law prohibits rental of a hotel room to more than six people. This can be applied to all swing clubs in Phoenix.


As someone said on the ClubC group, It's sad that this is supposed to be the Land of the Free...what bullshit! There's nothing wrong with enjoying an adult atmosphere where everyone has a great time! I've been to the swinging clubs in Germany and was hoping to experience one here in Arizona, but thanks to our stupid government I guess that won't be the case now....

Here is their words - Posted 7/6/05
Members & Friends of Club Chameleon:

It is with deep sadness, as of June 11, 2005, Club Chameleon has closed its doors for the last time. During our eight and one half years of existence, Club Chameleon became recognized nationally, as a destination for lifestylers who travel to Phoenix. Thousands enjoyed the club for its professionalism, cleanliness, safety and for its aura of respect and understanding of members' differences. Our name recognition exceeded the swingers' world locally. Unfortunately, we may have become a victim of our own success.

In 1998, the Phoenix City Council, adopted an ordinance 23-54 called the "Live Sex Act Business," which basically stated that you could not charge to view or participate in sex acts. Their reasoning was to eliminate prostitution at the local clubs, although to my knowledge, not one prostitution arrest has ever been made at a Phoenix swing club.

Secondly, they feared we would be a drain on calls for service from the police and fire departments. Over the last eight plus years, our records indicated that we are as law abiding as any business in the city. I liked my chances at Club Chameleon over the local Seven-Eleven! But then again, we are talking about sex, which seems to disturb some people more than crime and safety.

Sexually transmitted diseases have also been their concern. As a past club owner, it was also a great concern for us as well. We wanted our members to have fun, play out their fantasies, but be responsible and live to play another day. Our membership indicated that they must use safe sex practices, with anyone other than their mate. People are not going to stop what they are doing because there is no Club Chameleon, they'll find a new place to do it!

Zoning became a bottomless pit. We never did quite enough. Early in June the club sent a legal team to City Hall. When they came back with the message that the private rooms became illegal, it was the final straw. They said they would cite us daily. We were becoming a shell of what we once were. Not only our club, but clubs around the nation are now violating zoning issues. This seems to be spreading like the plague.

Please, don't even say `privacy," or "consenting adults" to us. That was worn out in 1998. Common sense isn't so common.

Will the elimination of Club Chameleon alleviate community concerns or just spread the concerns around? Time will tell. My belief is that if every citizen of the city knew about swingers clubs, most wouldn't give a damn. Remember, no members were ever arrested. The ordinance was for owning, operating and collecting money. You could express yourselves. Out on the street, you're playing with different rules. In a bar, it can be indecent exposure, or lewd and lascivious behavior and its all on you. The more a group brings attraction to them selves, the more likely someone is not going to like it. Mixed venues with swingers, and just about anyone else, are a lightning rod, no matter how hot you think you are. If you were afraid to come to the club, you should be afraid of what you do in public. It is no fun to be used as an example.

Swingers, look at the bigger picture. I respect everyone's right to be with whom they want to be with. Be grateful when there is a choice of venues. Bashing other venues, in hopes that will help the one you attend is short sighted. Of course, now with internet chat rooms and sites, you run into self proclaimed authorities, who have never put up a dime. If you don't like swinging and it makes you feel badly, you ought to get out of it.

I know this. When the judge said I am now $18,000 lighter, she didn't care about my style, or whether I had eastside people or west side people. The prosecutor asked the judge to give me six months in jail. When she heard that we closed the club she said she would settle for ninety days. Thank goodness, Judge Berry thought I would not need any further rehabilitation, since we closed the club. We want to thank the members who wrote letters to the judge and testified in my behalf.

I'm sure when the city eventually forced us to close, they may have had a moment of celebration, but if they want to keep their jobs, they have to stay busy. They have to have something to do. Pay attention. This is happening all over the country. You don't care if they close the clubs? When they are closed, they'll have a lot of time on there hands. They could be coming to a party that you're at. I have a list of attorneys, if you need one.

As advocates of the lifestyle, we are allowing local and national events on our site. Feel free to use our post its to help make your matches. Remember to be an informed voter this fall. Find out who is interfering with your freedoms and who supports them. Your vote counts. Good luck to all of you. We deeply miss the club and the relationships we have made. We have made great friends all over the country and out.

Thanks to the many great members who attended the club through over eight years, and particularly those who volunteered their free time to help make Club Chameleon a better place. We also had some great people work for us. We closed out with the best staff ever.

There were some great memories. If you have a sexy or funny story about something that happened to you, or something you saw at the club, we will be happy to publish it on our site. I'll bet we could come up with some interesting reading. You are still free to write and express your thoughts. After all, they can't stop you from thinking.

Best wishes,
Milo & Nancy

THIS IS WHAT WE HOPE FOR AND WHAT REPENT AMARILLO WILL BE HELPING TO ORCHESTRATE ON A NATIONAL LEVEL.

Tim,
It's funny. You disappear when the swingers show up and reappear when they leave. Why is that?
David

Tim,
The scriptures say that when you do your charitable work you are to do it in secret, that is, to not brag to others, so I will just say I do charitable work for the community all the time but I guess I do an adequate job of " not letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing." since you are unaware of it. I will not discuss it now. There are many good Christians doing many wonderful ministries. The Bible says there are numerous different kind of ministries but they are all part of the body of Christ and none of them are to say to the others, " I have no need of thee." The scriptures say, " If all the body were an eye, where would be the hearing?" My ministry is different but necessary. I am an evangelist. You might see me around town if you drive around certain areas of the city on a weekend night. You will see us outside of bars, strip clubs, porn shops, and the swinger's club (when it reopens). You will also see us at Mardis Gras in New Orleans every year.So, if you see us, stop by and introduce yourself and we'll buy you a cup of coffee and you can see firsthand what we do.
David H. Grisham

Grisham,

This! is my last post now. I have tried quoting scripture, but each time I do, you don't even seem to notice that I use it. Or if you do notice it you twist it to fit your agenda and not the true word that is on the page. You are not worth my time anymore. My time is in better use, SERVING the community. What have YOU done to HELP the city of Amarillo, other than try to bring people down with your group? I work nearly every weekend on Service Projects to make this area better. I highly doubt you do anything worthwhile for the community. To be a servant to God you must be a servant to the people first, otherwise it means nothing.

I dare YOU to go to Faith City Ministries or City Church and see what a difference you can make in peoples lives who lost God and have found him again. These are the true Christians, these people are more Christ-like than you will ever be.

I'm finished with you.

Good day, sir.

Tim Vela

P.S. To the people who comment on this wonderful "opinion" column, please note that Grisham will not accept your opinion, he will only tell you to quote scripture to him and even if you do he will not accept it.

Tim,
"Whoever then wants to be a friend of the world is an enemy of God."
James 4:4
Does that sound as if we are to be tolerant of the world? We are called, as Christians, to be separate from the world. We are called to be holy. Quote me ONE scripture that says we are to be tolerant of the world.
David H. Grisham

David H. Grisham
Director of Repent Amarillo

I stopped commenting for the simple reason that you are a brick wall and will listen to no one. Yours is the only truth regardless of what people say to you and you will not listen to the other side of the story. However, your story is the sad one here, when people are intolerant of others, then they are ignorant of the world. I have listened to your side of the story and tried to understand it, but you offer no real reason as to why I should believe you other than it is the word of God. I can respect that, but if I wasn't a Christian then why should I listen to you? Maybe you should rethink the way you go about "telling people about Christ" and find a way that doesn't turn people away from the word of God. I personally think you have lost your true purpose here, and you need to regain it before you continue on your journey. When all but a few Christians on this website and in Amarillo do not agree with your sentiments, then it is time to rethink your operation.

I have always been taught that the Bible, God's Word taught peace among men, tolerance of the world and a religion based on faith. However, I do not feel that you preach that, and it has made me question the true merit of Christianity? have I lost faith? No, but the more you speak sir, the less faith I have in it. And I don't think I'm the only one who agrees with this.

I also see that you don't believe that men can judge you, but you have to remember that the Bible tells us that we must obey the laws of man, unless it goes against the laws of God set forth in the Ten Commandments. Therefore, you are subject to man's judgment as well as God's judgment. Do not think you are above the law of man.

This is my last post as I do not have time to argue with a brick wall. I would use a wrecking ball but I do not seem to have one at the moment, quite costly now a days. Oh and thank you for giving business to these businesses that you believe are the root of all SIN in Amarillo. You are too kind.

With Kind Regards,

Tim Vela

Norm,
I do not fear man but only God.
David H. Grisham

Well after some checking this morning, this will be my last post. Mr. Grisham feels that he has not done anything wrong and is continuing to believe he can proceed in his usual manner. I have some sincere advice for you David. You are actually facing Criminal charges and you ARE being investigated by local law enforcement. Several complaints are pending and will be filed very soon regarding your past activities. No Joke, No Game. If you intend to Harrass, Impede, Interefere and/or Disrupt the Re-Opening of the Rental Center on Sixth, you will face extreme Civil liabilities. No Joke, No Game. If you choose to ignore my advice, so be it. Just be aware that an Ambush awaits you and your followers and No crucified Easter Bunny ads will cover you this time. Wake up Mr. Grisham. There's a Storm brewing and you will be judged by man and by an even Higher Authority for anything else you may do. Goodbye and Enjoy the rest of your life. I'm Done!

Be in good company. Thomas Payne, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, some even suggest George Washington should be there to meet me then. Some of the greatest men of our country.

Good bye Grisham. I am sure I will see you on TV again as camera hungry as you are. I will try not to pity you.

Westex,
As I said, I dust my feet of you. You think whatever you like. I will judged by God...and so will you. I pray you give your life to Christ so you can be my neighbor in heaven. Otherwise, you will be forgotten in hell.
David

A salesman's answer to everything. Some things in your book you claim are to be taken as it says. Others are to be taken "spiritually". As far as I know you make it up as you go along because you don't know the answer, or can't do as it says. The way I see it, in that chapter, Jesus said that his followers can do all those things. Pretty point blank, he didn't say it in other words. You forgot the healing people part, Jesus healed people, and claims that his believers can too. Can you heal people?

Bah, I am tired of you David, you change the meanings of words, you claim some of the bible is true, and others are to be taken as a "spiritual" meaning. I will not argue with a man who can't make up his mind on what the bible says.

You have already proven that you are a liar (Fake names, claiming you were a Deist, and lets not forget my fave, undercover cops:1 Commandment), you covet (you wanted to join the club and weren't allowed or something along those line, read all my previous posts on that: 2 commandments). Lets not forget the teachings of Jesus where you have failed, you are not meek(wanted to be on TV and seen), you are not a peacemaker (look at all the trouble you have started), you are not merciful(all you show is hatred and bigotry). Now I believe that you may be blessed due to persecution, hatred ,and the insults you will receive from others. The things where you may be blessed are due to your failures at the others.

I know in your own little world you are patting yourself on the back, and telling god what a good little christian you are because you "shone the light" on the nasty swingers. You interpret the bible as you see fit. You know that's the thing about the bible, everyone can have a different meaning for it. You change words, you claim things that some of the things Jesus said are only spiritual or that he was only speaking figuratively. Read Romans Chapter 2.

This article nails you true. If you could get the following and the power, I can see you becoming like Hitler. Attempting to rid the world of people like me, the swingers", the Methodists, the Episcopalians, and anyone else who doesn't meet your religious criteria. You are a bigot and a coward. Remember 1 thing Grisham, we live in a country of religious tolerance. Our Bill of Rights guarantees that. Just because you harass people in the name of god, doesn't mean that everything you do is legal. I look forward to seeing you overstepping your limits and getting arrested for anything. It will hurt when you fall off that high horse you ride.

Westex,
That passage is referring to things in the spiritual. Serpents or snakes (refer to Geneisis and the Garden of Eden) is speaking about the demonic. And drinking poison is referring to the poison of the serpents or snakes. It is just saying that the power and evil of the demonic enemy cannot harm those who serve Christ. Do you actually see in the Bible Paul, Peter, or any of the other Apostles drinking poison or playing with snakes? No, of course not. Those who do not serve the Word, do not understand the Word.
David

Your the one trying to prove the bible. If you are baptized and a follower then Mark 16:18 should be easy for you. I don't have to prove anything. It doesn't say that you have to be a follower to witness such events, just that you have to be a believer to be able to do them. If you are as good as christian as you say, then you should be able to go grab a rattlesnake and be ok, along with all the other things you are supposed to be able to do.

Westex,
Perform Mark 16:16
David

Grisham,
Perform Mark 16:18
Westex

Norm,
Read John 3:16-19
David

Mr. Grisham, No one contests or argues against your faith or your beliefs or even how you as an individual choose to practice these beliefs. You have a right to worship as you see fit. But what we all object to, is when you try to force your beliefs and standards on others. Either we believe as you or we go to Hell. Either we agree with you or you will assail us with scripture to prove how "Wrong" we are. I do not expect you to accept my beliefs or how I choose to worship my God. That would be wrong of me to push my issues of faith upon you without asking how you felt. Mr. Grisham, Love your God, Our God as you wish. Maintain your feelings of the Bible and interpret the words as you see fit, But let others who disagree with you Live their lives without harrassment, without fear of exposure or humiliation. without threats or demands. Live your life and from a distance tell us we are doomed, tell us we are lost, But please don't hurt anyone else. Don't condemn or castagate others in the name of God on your behalf. Please David. Search for peace and acceptance. You may not feel it's right and feel compelled to chase the sinner for sake of the Sin, But don't let the darkness of a misguided heart lay waste to the Dreams and Adventures of your fellow Man. John 3:16

Oh and one more thing Grisham. I maintain my opinion of you. A bully hiding behind the scripture. I still maintain that you attempted to get into the club because you wanted to, but when some friends or family heard about it, you started backing up. That's when it got religious. You had to save face in front of your friends. I base that on you not "protesting" anywhere else.

Some christian, you have lied time and time again throughout this argument. Talking about the cops, an unlicensed sex club (which is false or the city would have taken care of that), lying to get into the club (fake names), oh but I guess lying is ok as long as its in the name of god. Some god huh.....

No need to pray for me because your prayer will be nothing but a prayer of hatred.

Can't prove any of the story huh? You show me Mk 16:18.

Westex,
I dust my feet of you. Your blood is on your own head. I will pray for you. And if that swinger's club reopens, you will probably hear this message again from others because we will try to witness to all the swingers every time they have a party. Goodbye.
David

Westex,
You serve a false God.You serve the lie first told to Eve in the Garden of Eden that "You can be like God knowing good from evil." Neither you nor any other human being can determine by your own resources what is right and wrong because it always comes back to one thing; If you determine for yourself, by your own reason, what is truth, then the truth you devise WILL ALWAYS SERVE YOURSELF FIRST AND BE SELFISH IN NATURE. 6.5 billion people living their own selfish truth will lead to chaos and destruction of the whole. The Bible says the worst thing a society can do is for "each man to do right in his own eyes" Each man's "eyes" serve himself and are totally selfish by nature. Just let a child grow up doing whatever it wishes without moral guidence from its parents and you will have a selfish monster. You cannot even logically live by the wishes of the false creator you claim since you claim he never makes his wishes known to man. You cannot know his wishes.They are YOUR wishes and none other.


By the way, the entire United Nations voted in favor of giving the Jews their homeland and the majority of those delegates were not Christian or Jews and so had no thought of trying to force a fulfillment of a prophecy they did not believe in. Regardless of how it happened, it was predicted 2,500 years ago and that is an historical FACT. Then it came to pass on May 15, 1948 as a matter of historical FACT. In Isaiah it even asks, "Can a nation be born in a day?" In one day Israel was born again, ressurected from the dead, just as predicted. The god you have created in your own image will lead you to hell. You need to repent of your sins and surrende yourself to Jesus Christ and believe in your heart He was raised from the dead. Do so and you will be saved. Do it not and you will spend eternity in hell. Your choice. Choose wisely.

So it was written by man? From thoughts placed in their heads by God? Much as a work of fiction is written by people with a lot of creativity?

And just so you know. I do live by the wishes of the creator. Just one different than you believe in.

Westex,
The Bible was not written by man. Did your computer write your last post? Or did you? You did. You just used the computer as an instrument of your will. God did the same with the Bible. God could very easily have just handed a book to someone from heaven and said, "Here, read this and live by it." But the way God did it was brilliant. God is a God of the living. His Word is living and so He wrote it first on the living hearts of men before they transcribed it to paper for posterity. He did this for good reasons. First, those who transcribed from God's will to their hearts and then to paper fully understood what God was saying. A mysterious book from the sky would be extremely confusing. Men's hearts understood what was first written on them. It also made the men who God gave revelation to, passionate ambassadors of His Word. It also uplifted their faith and made them leaders. Also, a mysterious book from the sky would not be a human story and would not be relational. God is a relational God and He wrote His love story of how He is redeeming mankind with those He loves very much involved.
David

Have you read a thing I have posted?

As far as a belief in God, there has to be one that created the heavens and earth. Keep in mind though that science is working for a reason to explain that because its what we are supposed to do. Also, keep in mind that I use the term God loosely, all we know is there is someone more powerful than us that created everything.

Hmm....lets see. The world was sympathetic for the Jews after WW 2 because they had just gone through the Holocaust. They had no where to go. Hey, what about that piece of land that was just taken away from the guy that had murdered them? Could we let them have it, I mean after all, it was written in the bible that they have it back. Like I said, a fictional story that enough people believed in to make it happen.

Every man's mind is different, but the reasoning works the same. Some people choose not to use reason which to us is not what god wants us to do. Just like as in your religion, some people don't follow your rules? Same thing happens in ours. We just don't start wars and harass people because of it. It like I posted above, people learn through reason, and when enough people learn something they band together and attempt to share it with everyone else. If the ideas are reasonable enough, then the moral becomes ingrained. It has taken thousands of years to get to where we are now, and we learn new things every day considering morality.

You still base your faith on a book written by men. Every religion has to have some piece of faith, your is in that book, mine is in that we cannot explain creation reasonably.

Westex,
Since every man's reason is different then you come back to the same problem as every man following the lusts of his own heart. Mankind is capable of reasoning all kinds of evil. Men's minds are just as corrupt as their hearts. And this fictitional God you speak of is self-contradictory. If God created the world and then stepped away from it and never wrote or said anything to mankind then you would have no knowledge of him to even reason about. You would never know his will so you would just be making it up out of thin air.
As far as the prophecy of Israel goes, it is good that you finally admitted it was real. Here is the problem with your reasoning about it though. You claim it was contrived to make the prophecy come true. Well, let's see that would mean either the Jews or the Christians did it so as to make it be fulfilled, right? After all, they would be the only ones interested in making it come true. Now, historians all agree as to the world's motivation for giving Israel their homeland. World sympathy came for a homeland for the Jews because of the holocaust. So, it could not have been the Jews that created the climate for the entire United Nations to vote them a homeland because that would mean they orchestrated the murder of 6 million of their own people. It could not have been the Christians because Hitler was certainly no Christian and neither was his regime. Hitler was trying to kill the Jews not make world sympathy for them to go back to Israel. If he was motivated to give them a homeland he would have just moved them there because Germany had control of Palestine until the Allies took it back by force. Hitler could have fulfilled the prophecy if he so desired but he wanted them dead, not restored. So, the prophecy became fulfilled because of world sympathy garnered from an act of evil by Hitler, an enemy of the Jews. Only God does things like that. He gave us salvation through Jesus Christ by His death at the hands of His enemies. The prophecy was made. The prophecy was fulfilled, thus utterly destroying your theory that God does not get involved in the world He created. God is involved with the world. The problem is that there are far too many like you who refuse to get involved with your heavenly Father.
David

And David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear. Do you consider him a god too? As I have stated in the above post, when I see a replication of MK 16:18 then I will change my mind.

And you have moral authority? Who made you in charge of deciding morality?

If you had actually been a Deist then you would see where we get our morals from. God gave us the ability to learn them through reason. It is perfectly reasonable to be kind and gentle. The morals we have today have been learned over the centuries and we will continue to learn new ones. Think of it as a cause and effect. If I am nice to somebody, then they will be nice to me. If enough people begin believing the same morals, then they will band together and share them with others. Jesus (if he existed) was the best morality teacher there was. Jefferson believed he existed as a teacher, hence he wrote his own bible based on the Jesus' morality teachings. Please read post stating what we believe in.

As for as you having a moral authority? You get it from a book written by how many men? And it is even missing some of the chapters. You sir, have no moral recourse to say the "swingers" have done anything wrong.

As far as creation, yes God created us and then stepped away. His creation is perfect so there is no need for him to get involved. Do you play with a model that is perfect and risk breaking it?

Where did I ever say that we follow our heart? I believe I said that we use reason which is the mind. It is you that believe everything with the heart.

As for as Israel, yes it was written, but have you stopped to think that the since people believe so fervently in the bible, that THEY are the ones that made it happen. Not a miracle, but people banding together and making it happen strictly due to their belief in a story. Research some on Pavlov's law and Freud please.

I do not believe that I have not said you were wrong for having your beliefs, if I did then I apologize. I believe I said that you were wrong in the treatment of the "swingers". I also believe that most of what I did was just to question the foundations your beliefs were based on.

Norm,
Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever then wants to ba a friend of the world is an enemy of God.
James 4:4

Well said Westex. Mr. Grisham not only doesn't care who he harms or damages in his careless dogma, but his goal is publicity and exposure. Not Christ like in any way. David Grisham will fail like all others of his ilk because he uses hate under a mask of "Love" and He hides his resentment and illness behind the moniker of "The Bible." Regardless, he knows the truth and no matter his lies and games, Mr. Grisham is being watched by those who recognize the danger of fanatics and mis-guided fools. He pretends he is strong and un-afraid. He pretends to be blessed by the counsel of the Lord. In reality he is but another preaching, judgemental shadow of a man who must justifiy is exsistence by scaring and intimidating others in the name of "God". Mr. Grisham knows he will fail. He is just trying to prove he is not the little fellow with a Bullet in his shirt pocket.

Grisham,

Have you ever thought that it is you that causes people to want to remain anonymous?

What worries us about you is the fact that you don't care who you harm, embarrass, get fired, or split from their family. I can see you looking someone up in the phonebook or on the net. Its easy to find out where people live and work. I can see you showing up and harassing people at work and getting them fired just because they disagree with you. Spill your rhetoric all you want, but it is you that are keeping people from posting their real identities. As long as the argument is valid and not someone just yelling, what does it matter if they wish to remain anonymous just because they are scared of YOUR cultish tactics

Penn,
It is easy to criticize behind the veil of anonymity is it not? I mean, you can say whatever behind a fake name like "penny loafer" and it requires no courage whatsoever as with your real name. But that aside, you have really no idea how we witnessed to the swingers at that club. As Christians, we must give the whole counsel of God. There is a reason that Christ said to first repent. Because that is the first thing one must do to be saved. You hold up the law to show them their need for a Savior and then you offer them the grace of God through Jesus Christ. That is exactly what we did at the swinger's club. Now, I called that one person a "swinger" because they are one. They have been posting on other sites where they have admitted as such. As for being Christlike, well since Jesus Christ called people hypocrites, liars, broods of vipers, white-washed sepulchres, and told some their father was the devil I guess that's O.K. for me to say those things too? I thought I was being rather mild. And Jesus did not just protest evil in the house of God He got outright physically violent about it. Are you suggesting I do the same? Jesus said things that were so offensive that twice they tried to murder Him by stoning and once tried to throw Him over a cliff. Was what He said that was so offensive said without love? Or perhaps we should not accept the world's definition of love and use it to water down Jesus Christ? If you do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ then you do not even have a clue as to what love actually is. Let me repeat that. If you don't have a relationship with Christ you don't know love. Because Jesus is God and God is love. If you don't know Christ you don't know love.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

Eva,
Great points! A simple rhetorical analysis of ideologies in text written and spoken by Hitler coincides with current statements made by Repent Amarillo. That’s just fact – without feeling and scripture. I love how this has become so much more than that.
Also, your response to David was very mature. You are probably the smartest of us all.
Since I am not as mature or smart, I am now compelled to argue Biblical semantics with David.

David,
I get what you're trying to do, and you make some good points. Seeing people in sin should break our hearts - as it breaks our Lord and Savior’s. We should try to help them out of sinful actions. Bottom line, where's the love? You can have the voice of angles but without love it's just a bunch of noise (to paraphrase). I don't disagree with your organization’s premise of trying to merely shed light on the culture of sin, but do you think those people that you pointedly and publically embarrassed felt your love; the love of Jesus? Maybe they ONLY saw condemnation - from you (and thereby Jesus). The woman by the well in the Bible was mentioned. Yes, Jesus made her aware of her sin, but he showed her compassion and love. Which do you think guided her more toward repentance?
Bringing people to Christ is not just about war and peace; lies or truth; right or wrong; or whether to judge or not to judge (as many of your conversations with others have been about); but simply, love. Love covers a multitude of sin. EVERYTHING hangs on this little nugget.

Does loving them mean you ignore what is going on? No, but if you truly are doing it for God in the name of Jesus, shouldn't it be more "Christ like."

I am truly saddened that you are vindictively planning "surprises" from up your "sleeve" if this club reopens. It sounds more like a vendetta that truly caring about saving/winning people back to Christ.

In the entire Bible, Jesus only publically protests on one occasion and that was because of sin that was taking place directly in the House of God. This institution that you “highlighted” was not portraying to be a House of God. In every instance, Jesus drew people to Him with love and truth. Not just truth, but a mixture of the two. I think you’ve got capital “T” truth on your side as far as what sin is and what happens if people die in it. However, just calling them sinners is not going to help us serve God’s desire for us to “seek and save the lost.” Tell me, how many individuals were brought to Christ from the specific actions you took against the club (those specifically on the receiving end of your actions)? If you are merely pointing out the sins of others, but not reeling them in with love, you might as well leave it for judgment day. Is not our commission to seek and save the lost (whether it be our fallen brethren or sinners never saved)? Isn’t the key to that love? Sure we can seek the lost all day long and even tell them they are lost, but there is not point if purpose isn’t to save them. Love leads those that are lost to be found.

I think the main point of contention between you and the other believers on this blog is HOW you are doing what you are doing. Essentially, I can’t see how this is loving your brother or winning others over with love. Though, I am sure you will debate what scripture “really means” in regards to this reference and unfortunately, you and some may believe what you did was love.

I won't debate civil liberties with you, because that isn’t the core issue you’re arguing. Additionally, I think everyone is pretty much acting out the civil liberties this great country grants us. I actually love it, “what you did/are doing is wrong; it violates rights,” “no it isn’t; I’m within my rights to do what I’m doing,” and so on. All the while, we are utilizing our rights to argue who is or is not violating rights.

Finally I take stock with “name calling.” While you are within your right to do so, civilly, personally, as a Christian, I am disappointed that you label anyone who disagrees with you a "swinger." Why, just because someone disagrees with you, are they automatically labeled a swinger by you? Again, where is the love?

As a side note, name calling is an argumentation fallacy that’s tacky – you try to discredit people (even when they are credible) and thereby their arguments; changing the focus of the argument to the person and not the issue… very sneaky. But, I am curious, do you discredit them so readily because otherwise you might actually have to concede that there is truth to their statements?

I am sure I have wasted my time and that I should have headed what others have written about getting into a Biblical tryst with you. However, I thought I would make this one attempt to share my viewpoint.
Who knows, maybe you will consider some of what I have said just as I have considered what you have written.

Penn E. Lofuer

DW,
It is the intention of Repent Amarillo to confront the culture (as Jesus did His) without condemning individuals.
A good example of this is our Easter campaign. We crucified the Easter bunny in our bus bench ads. We added the following line, " The pagan Easter Bunny did not die for your sins but Jesus Christ did." The point being to confront the idolotry of the Easter Bunny which is displacing the truth of Jesus Christ in our culture at Easter. But no one individual is condemned. You can view these benches at 10th and Georgia, Western and Olsen, 16th and Washington, and 26th and Britain.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

DW,
Good comments.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

I'd like to begin by saying that I am not affiliated with, and I know very little about Repent Amarillo. That said, comparing a peron or organization to a mentally ill dictator who orchestrated the murder of millions of people seems rather impolite. Repent Amarillo's mission, as I understand it, is no different from the popular movement to rid our society of the intolerance of the Christian church. Fair or not, like it or not, it's certainly not a one-sided attack. Everyone advocates what they believe is right, and fights against what they believe is wrong, or harmful to our culture and people as individuals.

There has been a lot made in this discussion of Hitler's belief that God inspired and instructed him to believe and act as he did. This can be readily dismissed because of his mental illness. We don't bear any ill will toward David Berkowitz' neighbor's dog, or the people who fed him and scratched his belly, do we? Berkowitz attributed his ideas and desires to the dog to relieve himself of the weight of his own evil. People have a need to accomplish good things and when they have desires to do horribly evil things, it feels a lot better to say that it was someone else's idea. God is often chosen as the source of these imagined directives because His authority supercedes societal norms and even laws. Hitler's ideas and actions could only be justified if they came from a higher power, and God was an easy target.

There's also been a lot of discussion about Jesus and the company that He kept. It's absolutely true that Jesus Christ argued with the legalistic church folk of the day, (the Pharisees) and showed great love to people who, by His own standards would be considered evil. He refused to condemn the woman caught in adultery (John 8), and he admonished her, in verse 11, to go and leave her life of sin. This is a prime example of the heart of Christ and His message. Jesus commonly spoke out against the sin, faithlessness and immorality of the day, and loved the people who were doing it. The purpose of this love and forgiveness is not to say that sin and evil are okay, but to lead people to repentance. Romans 2:1-4 1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?" The battle then, is not to be waged against people, but against evil itself. 2 Cor. 10:3-5 "3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

This creates a problematic dichotomy for the devoted christian, and I believe that most sensible people in the church will admit that we, collectively, haven't done the greatest job of living all of what we believe. It's difficult war against evil while loving the person who is doing it. On this point, I am constantly challenged, and often fail. It is my sincere hope that my comments will serve to promote understanding and peace, and not lead to further argument.

Sorry for the long post, but this one's pretty deep - DW

Grisholm,

I see you've moved on to debating things on the prairie news website. I want to say thank you for letting more people know what's going on with you and your cause. Many of my supporters are at WT. If the "swingers club" reopens I guess I'll be seeing you again and my group and I look forward to seeing what exactly you have up your sleeve. As Bobby Brown says the establishment is a party rental building and is operating as such. Well I dont have time to go on, later.

Ashley

You could not be more more wrong, but you seem to be enjoying your little show so just laugh and think it's all a game. As far as "You Swingers are Silly", once again you are incorrect. Smile while you ruin and cause troubles for other peoples lives, grin at the Evil you create as it wrecks havoc on other Human Beings. You are dancing near a fire of your own creation and you find it all amusing. Think real hard David. God is not only watching, he is remembering too. Every act you engage "in and for the lord", that cause pain, hardship or damage to another is not only a Sin, it is a absolute Sickness. We'll see Mr. Grisham, But you go ahead and laugh. That's what clowns do best.

Norm,
There is no crime and we both know it. There is no fraud or attempt to defraud because there was no attempt to gain anything of value. There was no false identification because no positive ID was required for access to a blog. Conspiracy to do what? No extortion because no one has been blackmailed. You swingers are silly.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

Thank You Mr. Grisham. You just admitted that you participated in a crime: FRAUD, CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT FRAUD, ATTEMPTING TO ACCESS GOODS OR SERVICES BY FRAUDULENT MEANS, FALSE IDENTIFICATION TO AQUIRE ACCESS, CONSPIRACY, EXTORTION.

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You.

Post your own comment

Mr. Brown,
The owner of the Route 66 swingers club told me himself that it was an on-premise sex club that charges admission at the door. It was not a rented building. The man who owns the building runs the club's website and owns the swingers club. He told me that and county tax records substantiate it. I went undercover for an interview with the owner. He ,himself, was the leak. We also downloaded pictures off their blog of the inside of the building. And those pictures substantiated everything the owner had said about the club. Another anonymous person ( still don't know who it is) also sent pics. We also had someone on their blogs for awhile and read all their public communications. So, we KNOW what the club is about. They are violating Potter County sexually oriented business regulations and they were granted a parking variance so as to let them operate a while longer so undercover police officers can infiltrate the club. That may have already been done. We very nearly got undercover reporters in there with hidden cameras prior to our outreach on Dec. 31st. They were scheduled to go in under fake names I provided during the interview for one of their Halloween parties (there were two) But because of technical difficulties with equipment that was not possible. A former swinger gave an extensive interview which we had posted on our website ( it is currently archived) that backed up everything we claimed. The evidence is huge and we have saved it all in multiple safe locations just in case.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

really I belive the artical that upset you because your tactic were compared to Hitler talked about the so called "swinger club". Also it is not my swinger club. I have never been in it and I'm sure you have not either so as I you have no idea what goes on in there. My point witch you can not seem to grasp is you are attacking a buisness with a legal matter. And you are wrong Anyone can rent the building for a party. So anyone that goes to a party in that building is a swinger? You need to get your facts strait.

I was told that your group was more or less stalking the building and I did not belive that. But by your on statement you admit that is indeed what is going on. Also as I asked before why do you and your group attack this group as I stated before they are not the only so called "swinger group" in Amarillo?

Are you a nobody because you have made it quite clear you care about the so called "swinger club"? You stated "It was an unlicensed sexually oriented business and as as such, was illegally operating." What law are they breaking? From what I have found out none. building codes have nothing to do with a unlicensed sexually oriented business.

What.....cnn, or foxnews this time? How many people are you going to blackmail? How many pics are you going to take? How many lives are you going to try and ruin, Grisham?

The "Swingers" are abiding by the law it would seem. The law enforcement officials say there is nothing illegal going on there. The city passed the variance. IF they reopen. I assume that means that everything is in check. I think the very first article in the AGN said something about licensing.

Have you ever stepped back and thought that you were just giving the place free advertisement. That you may be causing people to want to join this so called "club". I had never heard of it till your blaring news stories.

I still maintain my opinion. You are a petty man who didn't get to join the "cool" group so you are telling to get them in trouble. Which would be fine IF it were illegal. Instead you are trying to usurp the freedom they have while screaming about your rights are being stepped on. Everyone on your "warmap" has the rights and the privilege to worship and gather how they seem fit. None of them were breaking any laws (I am not counting building codes in this, I agree that the buildings need to be up to code for safety issues) that I can see or have heard about.

Mr. Brown,
No one cares about your swingers club. If it re-opens we will be back. We don't want that evil operating in our city.I do not tell anyone they are going to hell. I tell them IF they don't accept Christ they will spend eternity in hell because that is what the Bible says. But if you've noticed NO ONE on here wants to talk about the swingers club because no one cares that it is shut down. They've been working on it and we've been watching. If they choose to re-open we will be back witnessing to the swingers for Christ and we have a couple of neat surprises.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

Westex4955 I'm glad that I don't live in amarillo and feel for you and my good friend that talked with me about what was happening. So I did a little googling and found all of my facts and or verfied some thing I was told. I can still not belive that this person makes judgments acts on them and then when he is called on it denies he is judging. He also stated that " Have you noticed that I NEVER say someone is going to heaven or hell? " Then tells you that if you don't give your life to Christ you will go to hell.

Askes me if I serve Jesus Christ we study the bible every sunday before Church. But his attack on the the so called "Swinger Culb" is a matter of law. again I quote "We have tried (and succeeded at least temporarily) to shut down the Route 66 Swingers Club. It was an unlicensed sexually oriented business and as as such, was illegally operating." Again I ask how is that serving Jesus?

Eva,
It is actually quite impossible to force someone to believe in something. That is a matter of the heart. And with a world filled with sin and growing worse there is a very real need to call those in that sin to repentance. If you will look in the last few verses in Luke you will find that repentance preaching is part of the great commission that Jesus Christ has called us to. And to the same degree that the world falls deeper and deeper into sin the need for repentance will increase proportionally. No one gets saved without repentance. The scriptures say that on some have compassion, making a distinction, but others save with fear,pulling them out of the fire hating even the garments defiled by the flesh. Some must be won by compassion but others with fear. The church has gone too far to the compassion side and there is a lack of the fear of the Lord. That causes sin to abound. That is where our world is now. Our ministry is trying to change that. Like Jesus, we intend to confront the evil culture of our day but we condemn no one.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

As I said Bobby, he won't answer legit questions. He just thumps his chest and shouts scripture.

As well as any human can! As far as discussing my relationship with Jesus, That is between me and Jesus. Your point of view means nothing to me. For the simple reason it will not effect my relationship with Jesus one way or another. I do not believe that your terror tactics serve Jesus in any way, But that is my opinion.

You sir in the first sentence of your first post called Ms.Harder a liar for her opinion. Why are you so defencive? I believe you stated on your website that your group closed the swinger club down. I have found out that the group you protested New Years Eve has just rented another building for there get togethers. Making your statement not true. The building you protested is a party rental room from all that I can find out about it. Tell me how that is serving Jesus, Attacking a business?

Mr. Brown,
Do you serve Jesus Christ? That is all I want to discuss with you.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

If I believed that, then I will probably see you there. For as my teachings as a child (Yes, I was raised a Christian, at least until I could see that the bible was hypocritical)taught me, you are not following the teachings of jesus. He did not want to be in the spotlight as you tend to seem to want. The only ones he really got violent with were the money changers in the temple, all the others he taught CHOSE to follow him. He did not coerce people to follow him, or threaten them. He taught with love and peace, not threats.

As my beliefs are, all God asks of me is to be kind to my fellow man and to use the reasoning that he gave me therefore I am not sinning as you say. If I do end up in hell as you suggest, then I will be in good company. Jefferson, Franklin, Thomas Paine, and probably many others that would be worth knowing.

Maybe you should look towards the ones that actually need your help. The homeless, the druggies, the prostitutes. I know a few months ago, the Tyler Street Resource center had an outreach program that helped the homeless with medical care, food, and shelter. I was there helping, as were many other people and services (including some churches), yet no where did I see your Repent Amarillo. Maybe your group is to good for that, I am not sure. All you seem to want to do is bring people down and not lift up the ones that need it. Maybe you should get your hands dirty and actually help the needy. I for one do not need, nor want your help. I don't believe the "swingers" do either, along with the Methodists, the Episcopalians, The 10th Ave theater, the Gay community, and the list continues on.

Bobby, he won't answer legit questions, he avoids them, or throws scripture out.

Westex4955,
You are a sinner like the rest of us. You need Jesus Christ like the rest of us. If you do not give your life to Christ, you will go to hell.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

I have a few questions for this person also.

1. Why are you attacking the Route 66 club? as it is not the only so called swinger club in Amarillo. After a little internet searching found another one alive and well. Could it be that Westex4955's opinion is right on point?

2. Did you or did you not ask the management of the parking lot to the east of the building you are calling a swinger club to use the that parking lot to feed the homeless on New Years Eve? When you were told that parking lot was being used and you were offered another parking lot you refused it.

3. What School do you plan on being in front of on the first day of school next year?

And you still feel the way to win people over is by embarrassing them? Yes, we know....the camera's were just there "to shine the light" and awaken the community to the "swingers" club. Do you think that you honestly won anyone from that building over to your side, or that you pushed them further away. If you practice what you preach, then you would be trying to use kindness and some sort of respect to lure them to your side. Instead you use embarrassment and a complete lack of respect in an attempt to force them. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar Grisham, and while you words may not be sour, your actions sure are.

It is still my opinion that your reasoning behind all this is that someone in the so called swinging community upset you and so you are "getting them back". Now, I do base that on the straight fact that we have not seen your cult protesting physically or even speaking out (other than your warmap) against any of the other places that you had on your warmap such as the major churches. When I see you on Kfda in front of The Episcopalian or the Methodist churches, then my opinion may start to change. Until then I will maintain my opinion that you are hurt because you didn't get to join a club.

No, you will not get my name due to the simple fact that I do not trust you. Like I have said before, I will not have you at my daughters school, I will not have you at my place of employment, and I will not have you at my wife's place of business, due to my beliefs. I am a Deist, much as our founding fathers of this nation, Grisham. I do not believe in your bible, or your jesus so your scripture means nothing to me in my beliefs.

Katie,
We are not condemning anyone.We are condemning sins. We are confronting a culture of sin and condemning that sin but we are reaching out to the lost with evangelistic efforts and we are warning off-track Christians to reconcile to Christ. Do not believe me if you so choose. Study the Word of God.Not just the parts you agree with but ALL of it. Do not read what you believe but instead, believe what you read. The accusations I make against the swingers and those at Mardis Gras are against their behavior, not against them personally. Have you noticed that I NEVER say someone is going to heaven or hell? That is because I cannot see the future like God so only God can make that statement. I will tell you straight up that abortion, homosexuality, adultery, fornication, drunkenness, etc. are sins and I will condemn those actions, but by warning those who commit those sins of the possible consequences and offering Jesus Christ as the solution to those problems is love on an eternal scale. I am not free of sin. But I practice righteousness. Notice I said PRACTICE. I am not perfect but I am trying through a great deal of practice. Those who "practice" evil are not saved. That is what Jesus was talking about in Matthew chapter 7 when He said, " you will know them by their fruits" Obedience is the "fruit" of faith. Disobedience or "sin" is the "fruit" of rebellion to God. Those who choose to remain in rebellion end up in hell. Those who accept God's offer of mercy through Jesus Christ are saved. Notice that "Jesus saves". He saves those that are already lost. Christians need not condemn nonchristians because they are already condemned naturally by their sins. Refer to John 3:18 and John 3:36(as well as several others). So, Christ pleads through us Christians to nonchristians to change the road they have been on since birth ( road to hell) and get on the narrow path to heaven by following Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to God the Father.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

Mr. Grisham,
I am writing now to try and understand what your argument here is. I'd like to quote your previous post: "So, just because someone says they are Christian does not make it so." and, "So, just because someone says they are Christian and they are angered by what we do does not give automatic validity to their protest." I believe what you have said in these two particular statements is exactly what many of the previous respondents to this article have been trying to express. Their accusation, from what I understand, is that you and your organization are also claiming to be Christian and you are assuming that because of your claim, your arguments are automatically infallible. Sir, the accusation you are making against those people at Mardi Gras and the Swingers Club about their claim to be Christian is exactly the accusation that Mr. Vela and others are making against you. What we are trying to point out is that you too are not free of sin. You too claim to be Christian but yet, from where we stand, do not fulfill those standards that are expected of a Christian. You may respond to this attack and say, yet again, that "We compare ourselves to scripture, not to the attitudes of men," then why, sir, do you continue to condemn others through your own attitudes? If following in Christ is truly an intimate, personal relationship with him, then who are you to say that anyone is doing it in the wrong way? Please, Mr. Grisham, if you do believe in these principals, do not exempt yourself from judgment.

Katie Gustainis

Mr. Vela,
We are to be peacemakers with the bretheren. We are to make spiritual war against the devil and his lies. We are to love the sinner but hate the sin. I do not know if I'm in the bad graces of a majority of Christians around here but let me tell you something from experience. We went to Mardis Gras last month to witness on Bourbon Street. Most of the people getting drunk and screaming for girls to take off their shirts claimed to be Christian. So, just because someone says they are Christian does not make it so.
Jesus said in Matthew chapter 7 that you can tell by their fruits. Drunkenness, debauchery, and lewdness is bad fruit. Those walking with Christ don't dance with the devil. Jesus said too that we cannot serve two masters. He also said He would vomit out the lukewarm.
A lot of people in Amarillo also claim to be Christian when they're not. About 80% of the people going into that swingers club also claimed to be Christian. They twisted scripture to try and make it fit their adulterous lifestyle. Many are deceived. Many claim Christ with their mouths and deny Him with their actions. So, just because someone says they are Christian and they are angered by what we do does not give automatic validity to their protest. We compare ourselves to scripture, not to the attitudes of men.
The only hatred we promote is toward behavior, towards sin. We confront the corrupt culture but we do not condemn individuals. Jesus was making a comparative statement of going to extremes to avoid sin by referencing plucking out eyes, etc. Did you ever see anyone in scripture actually do that to themselves? No, you did not, Because it was an illustrative statement. Jesus was a radical guy and He advocated being radically against sin. We do not preach a message the world wants to hear, we preach a message God wants to speak.

David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

A point on the adultery part. How many wives and concubines did Solomon (the wisest man in the bible) have?

David H. Grisham Director: Repent Amarillo

First, thank you for the verse although I found it shortly after posting my response. Next, the quote about peacemakers was meant as a reference towards you. "Are you a peacemaker?" is what I asked, and even though the Bible is the "sword" mentioned by Jesus, wouldn't that mean that you should still be a peacemaker? Thus be capable of creating peace and concluding arguments? When you are in the bad graces of a majority of Christians in the Amarillo/Canyon area, does this not mean that you should maybe rethink your ideals? Or at least consider what you are doing? Why not be open minded and ask how others feel about the Bible and its interpretation, because how you see the Bible and the scripture that you put forth is completely different than I see it.

As for Matthew, I understand that the third and fourth versus are discussing hypocrites but does it not also mean within the Brotherhood of Christianity itself? When you are promoting hatred, does this not mean that when you preach against hatred of anyone; Adulterers, Homosexuals, or Thieves, etc. even though they themselves may in fact be Christians themselves does this not mean you are a hypocrite. Now let’s look to a lovely little passage,

Matthew 5: 27-30 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.”

Do you follow this passage? Anytime you look at a woman and think of her with lust of any sort, especially if you are married, do you cut out you eye or cut of your genital if you have an erection? I highly doubt it? But that’s what Jesus asked us to do? Why not do it? The reason is because times have changed, and therefore punishments have changed.

You stated that, Jesus never said anything about harmony but does love not equal harmony in the end? Where does this scripture fit in your quest then?

Matthew 5:43- 48 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Therefore, are we not to love our enemies? The “children of the devil?” On top of this, would there be good in the world if there were no evil? And if this is true, then would we care if there was good or not? These are philosophical questions that has baffled people around the world for ages?

As for Ephesians, does it not state in Ephesians 6:5-9, that slaves must obey their masters? I believe that parts of the Bible must not be taken literally, especially verses such as this.

In the end, what I am trying to say is that everyone has a different interpretation of the Bible. You have a literal interpretation; whereas, I have a combination of a literal and symbolic interpretation of the Bible. Neither of them is truly incorrect; however, this is where controversy comes in when trying to determine different Churches and who happens to be right. It’s all about where you attended church and how much the church has changed the meaning over time. I had the opportunity to attend a Baptist Church, Methodist Church, Church of Christ and even my Fraternity(which is Christian based), among others. Therefore, I got a wide range of opinions on the Bible and their interpretations. I believe in having an open mind with religion because if you don’t it can very well destroy you. Just keep that in mind when others have a different opinion than your own.

Tim Vela

Mr. Vela,
Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth.I did not come to bring peace but a sword." So, how is that Jesus can say " Blessed are the peacemakers" and then say of Himself "I came not to bring peace but a sword"? Very simply, He is referring to two differing groups of people. We are supposed to be peaceful towards our bretheren. That is, our fellow Christians. We are to live peaceably amongst each other. But as for Satan's Kingdom we are to make spiritual war. Now, Jesus is not referring here to a sword as a blade but a sword as it says in Ephesians Chapter six as being the Word of God. I am not a peacemaker with the Kingdom of Satan. I am a warrior for the Kingdom of Heaven.I carry a sword, the Word of God. Now, it says in Revelation that, " Who can hide from the wrath of the Lamb?" And it says that Jesus will return and destroy His enemies with the Sword from His mouth and His robe will be dipped in blood. So, Jesus will return and literally do physical war and kill God's enemies. As far as judging goes if you will look beyond just the " Judge not" of Matthew 7:1-2 and take it in context you will see in Matthew 7:3-4 ( the very next two verses) that He is referring to hypocrites.Then a little further on in Matthew 7:17-20 Jesus shows you how to recognize the hypocrites, by their fruit. So, when you think a Christian is judging by saying that adultery,homosexuality, theft, etc. is wrong, you are misunderstanding. To say that any sin is wrong is DISCERNMENT. That is discerning between right and wrong based on judgments GOD has made in His Word. Those are God's judgments, not man's. And repeating them is being an Ambassador for God(2 Corinthians 5:20)and speaking on God's behalf. Also, in 1 John 3:10 it says, " In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother." So, there again is another scripture about discernment between those who serve God and those who don't as evidenced by their fruit. Yes, we do all fall short of the glory of God as it says in Romans. But some are saved and others not. But notice the quote above in 1 John. It says those who PRACTICE unrighteousness are the children of the devil. Those who PRACTICE righteousness are bearing fruit of salvation. Practicing means to do something wilfully and with intent. It also means repetitiveness.The unsaved may do something good once in awhile but they "practice" sin. The saved may stumble and sin every once in awhile but they "practice" holiness. See the difference? As to the scripture you quoted about unity in Romans 15:5-7 it is referring to unity in the body of Christ not unity between believers and unbelievers. As believers we are to reach out to the lost but we are not to fellowship with them. Refer to Ephesians 5:11. So, we do not accept people as they are any more than God does. God loves everyone as they are but God loves everyone He puts in hell. God only accepts those who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and then walk in obedience to Him. 1 John 2:3-4 " Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says 'I know Him' and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him."
David H. Grisham

I have tried to maintain civility during our exchanges, but I hate being ignored on key points. Grisham refuses to answer any of my hard questions (I stand corrected, he offered to answer 1) unless I reveal my name or call him. I cannot understand the purpose of that as long as I keep the civility and the open mind. Frankly, the man and his followers scare me, the thoughts of Koresh and Jim Jones come to mind. Along with the fact that it is people like him that always seem to want to take away personal freedoms of others. I do not want him on my front porch, or at my daughter's school due to the fact that my beliefs are different than his.

Westex, that's fine. I just didn't want it to get there. I said that because of the mulltiple comment exchange previous..

Tim Vela

Tim Vela,

I have been carrying this debate along since Repent Amarillo first appeared on the scene New Years Eve. I have been trying to carry on a factual debate if you will look back through the different articles that the AGN has written. I do not believe that I have called Grisham any names and if I have I did not mean too. All I ask is for him to answer my questions concerning his motives and techniques which he has failed to do. My main concern is that he is condemning certain peoples freedom's yet claims the same freedom as his own. If you notice in his above posts, he did call me a coward, but I did not let that affect me, nor did I return a name calling spectacle.

I have been following along with this debate for a while, seeing points made for both sides. I really am not concerned with what repent amarillo is doing... not even entirely sure what it stands for... I do not support or discount the efforts made by Mr. Grisham.

Yet, I believe that the Scripture being used on both sides demands an answer that is logical and truthful, and I think my interpretation of these Scriptures might help.

To begin, Mr. Vela asks for the Scripture reference for where Christ brings a sword and not peace...
That is in Matthew 10:34.

I believe this Scripture is intended to mean that Christ comes not to bring peace to sin or the powers of darkness... but a sword... (which i think it is a metaphorical sword for the Word of God, for the Word is describes as sharper than a two edged sword (Hebrews 4:12))
I think that is directed toward sin, the evil one, etc. Not His people.

Now, the whole judgement scripture. It seems so contradictory, but its not... hope this provides clarity.

We are called to judge, believe it or not...

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” John 7:24
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" 1 Corinthians 6:2

Judge between good and evil...
Paul tell believers of the church to keep eachother accountable, judging one another...(for there was a guy sleeping with his step mom, and paul was telling them to judge this believers actions)
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore 'put away from yourselves the evil person.'" 1 Corinthians 5:9-13

I think this means it is ok to help keep other believers accountable for their actions, and judging them in this manner... like paul said.

But PLEASE do not interpret judging as condemning.

I believe this is where Mr. Vela's scripture reference comes into play...

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7:1-2

We do not know the hearts of a person... so judging/condemning them for being an unbeliever is wrong... for God is the only one with the power to do so. We are called not to judge/condemn, for it is in His time not ours...(1 Corinthians 4:5)

Christ did not even condemn when he was on the earth "have you come to torture us before our time (demon speaking) matthew 8:29... And Christ did not condemn.

Hence you are to keep fellow believers accountable by judging... by simply being like "hey man, you know thats wrong... right?"

Hate the sin... not the sinner.

That's where Mr. Vela's reference to Romans 15 comes in

Romans 15:5-7 “May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.”

We are accepted, and we accept others, but not the sin in their life. And this acceptance paul writes here is about the believers at the church he is writing to...

Now in reference to the meek shall inherit the earth, and blessed are the peacemakers... Maybe thats why I am not blessed or inheriting the earth... I think we all have issues with keeping the peace, and being meek.

Sorry if I have intruded into ya'lls conversation... but I agree that civility is a must if ya'll wish for this to continue. Hope this adds clarity for everybody...

Stay civil...
God Bless

J

David H. Grisham Director: Repent Amarillo

First off, I have attempted to use scripture; however you have not used any scripture yourself. Maybe it’s you who does not know the Bible? Nevertheless, let me try again because you are blatantly disregarding it:

Matthew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.”

Are you a peacemaker, because you do not sound like one?

- Peacemaker- (n.) one that makes peace, especially by settling disputes.

Matthew 7:1-2 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

Are you not passing judgment on these people who attend these establishments or the establishments themselves? And therefore, going against the word of God?

- Judge- (v.) to pass sentence on; condemn.

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

As I said before, we all fall short of the glory of God, you, me and everyone else. Therefore,

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

So, it becomes apparent, that even if these people may have done something bad, they can be forgiven according to the “truth.” Because he died for our sins and if you believe in him, then you go to Heaven.

- Believe- (v.) to accept as true, genuine, or real.

- Eternal- (adj.) being without beginning or end; existing outside of time.

Romans 15:5-7 “May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.”

From here are we not supposed to accept one another for who they are, because if we do not, then we become ungodly?

Okay, now that I have used scripture and truth to defend myself, let me begin on your comments themselves. And, as a matter of fact, you did claim that we compared you to Hitler, “Her opinion, and yours, regarding your comparison of me to Hitler is both laughable and immature.” Which is not laughable, nor immature, because we are not being the immature ones here, but I will get to that in a moment; I specifically said that your ideals were that of Hitler. And my original claim was in fact that of Hitler believing himself to be a Christian, which you once again ignored and the evidence to back it up, because I showed this through text that he did in fact believe this. Now, let us look at the definition of “immature- (adj.) emotionally undeveloped; juvenile; childish.” The fact that you had to come to a University website and attack someone who is years younger than you, because you do not agree with what she said is being immature. You attack anyone who doesn’t agree with you ideology, which makes no sense at all. You state that you don’t believe that you are attacking anyone, but this is a written attack. You have to keep an open mind to be able to debate any subject.

These businesses are legitimate, and even your website, which I have quoted already, calls for them to be shut down. You called the two businesses that you closed already a victory! You also said that you pray for the establishments; however you are there to protest with signs and all. If you were praying for them, wouldn’t you be down on your knees asking the Lord to forgive them for their sins? And whilst you’re at it, pray for your sins you commit as well?

The last thing I have, I did in fact say Jesus taught harmony, I was wrong. It was God that said we should live in peace. Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men!” How can you ignore this? Not to mention Romans 15:5-7. Also, I want to know where Jesus said he came bearing swords, not peace? Because I read the Bible and I went to Sunday school and I never learned that he brought war, I was always taught he brought peace…You keep saying I should bring scripture, but you however, have not given one piece of scripture to the table.

Once last thing, Westex and Grisham, you seem to have lost sight of what a real structured argument means. Name calling and the like have no place in my book. I would like to see some real argument from both sides rather than my ideas are better than yours, because that gets old and in my opinion, immature. I will at least try to understand both sides of the argument and then refute the side that seems less logical to me.

Argument- (n) 1. a discussion involving differing points of view; debate. 2. a process of reasoning; series of reasons.

Tim Vela

P.S. If this childish fighting continues, I will not be commenting on here anymore. I want to see a real debate...

Westex4955,
Then ask away. But I would prefer that you call because the exchange is fater and you can explain better. So, call me and dial *69 first so your number won't come up. But you can ask one question here.
David

Man you are a persistent bugger about getting me on the phone.

You say that you cannot do anything until after 4:30, well let me check my schedule today and see what this week is stacked up like. When I find a time, I will let you know and you can decide whether you actually want to meet or not.

What I find unusual though, is you want everyone to know what you stand for, yet you won't answer my questions in these blogs. I believe ,and I think most everyone else would agree, that my questions are legitimate and reasonable. A few were even about scripture which you profess to be so knowledgeable about.

Mr. Grisham,

Thank-you for your comment; I appreciate that you took the time to express your views.
You have every right to take umbrage with this article, as it was solely my opinion, and I respect that your opinion may differ from mine.

Speaking as the writer of this article, allow me to say that when I used the term “shut down” I was referring to the loss of Avenue Ten’s performance space, not that you are attempting to shut down every single business on the prayer map. As this was an editorial, messages can sometimes get mixed-up, so I apologize for the confusion.

You also seem to be under the impression that, in this article, I argued that Hitler was a Christian; I assure you, this was never my intention. I merely pointed out that Hitler claimed he was a Christian; again, I apologize for the confusion.

And now, speaking as Eva Harder, with no reference to the Prairie, I would hope that as human beings, as carriers of precious human life, that we can agree to disagree.

One of the things we may have to agree to disagree upon is my belief that Jesus never forced people to repent from their sins. He allowed people to come to him freely. He was a friend of tax collectors and sinners.

I know you said that you love the sinner and hate the sin, but I believe that pulling someone away from that sin by force and degradation will not turn them away from that sin, but only away from you and the God you serve.

Finally, you asked me what I was hiding.
Well, apart from a birthday gift for my roommate that I don’t want her to see just yet, I sometimes hide the belief that when the world comes to an end, heaven will not be filled with the Sadducees and Pharisees of the world. It will be not be filled with the ones who pointed their fingers in anger instead of lending their ears in understanding, and instead of the ones who find sin in every act, the heavens will be filled with those who found love in every act. Those who chose life, love, and faith instead of dogma.

That is my personal opinion, one I do not express with any anger or enmity.
We could spend years arguing biblical semantics back and forth, sir, each pulling a verse to support our own causes, but this is why different denominations of churches exist, so I do not wish to engage in that sort of discourse.

Perhaps we can coexist in peace, as I serve God in the way I see best, as you serve in the way you see best.

That is, after all, the beauty of serving God: the choice behind it. I would never dream of forcing you to see my point of view; perhaps you might show others the same courtesy.

Thank-you for your time,
Eva

Westex4955,
Then call me and dial *69 before you dial the number and it will not display your phone number.
David

Not gonna call Grisham. Told ya I will meet face to face. I am not giving you a chance to get my phone number. I believe all of my comments towards you have been civil. I have not raised my voice, have not called any names, all I ever asked was that you answer some legitimate questions without the bible because I do not believe in it. I want facts Grisham.

Westex4955,
You will need to call after 4:30 P.M.
David

Westex4955,
You want to actually have a civil conversation? Call me. 806-382-3121. If you forget, go to the website and click the "join us" button. My phone # is there also.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

Tolerance and love don't always go together. If you truly love someone, are you going to tolerate those behaviors that are harming them? For example, if a friend, someone you love, is cutting their wrists, are you going to tolerate that? I'd hope you'd stand up and say something. I hope you wouldn't just sit back and tolerate something that harms your friend. This is kind of an extreme example, but the same concept applies to gossip, or anything else. However, I think that there is an apporpriate way to address this or any other situation. Of course, you'd do it out of love, and not force.
I also don't agree with the statement that Jesus came "to take by spiritual force that which rightfully belongs to God." Yes, I do believe that everything belongs to God and should be used for his glory. But God has never, ever forced anyone to believe and accept His Word. One beautiful thing about God is that he loves us enough to give us the freedom of choice. Give me an expample from the Bible where Jesus ever forced anyone to believe his teaching. You won't find one. If you study the book of Mark, you'll find a common theme of Jesus telling the people to keep quiet and not tell others who he is. The message of go out and tell the world did not come until after the death of Jesus Christ. We've been given the right, even though we don't deserve it, to choose for ourselves. God wants our love, and that's something that can't be forced.
I think that wanting everyone to be saved is an awesome goal, and should be a goal of every Christian. I agree that we can't keep silent or this goal won't ever be accomplished. However, I don't agree with your methods. I don't see any love. Jesus showed love and compassion to the world, and the world responded to that love. Our number one priority as Christians should be to live as Jesus did. And please don't misinterpret anything I've said. I am not saying that you or anyone else is not trying to do this. I'm not trying to judge or condemn anyone because I don't have that right. I am extremely grateful that it isn't my job. I am not perfect, and I know that. So again, please do not think that I am trying to judge anyone.

What so that you can try to harass me due to my beliefs being different than yours? So that you can harass my family and children. So that you can find some reason to try to make me lose my job? So that you can persecute me?

I have offered to meet you somewhere in Amarillo and have a civil discussion but you did not take me up on that.

Westex4955,
I will answer all your questions and respond to you if and when you have the courage to identify yourself. Not until.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

And your not persecuting anyone Grisham?

You are trying to condemn people for personal beliefs, you are trying to harm people through publicity, finances, embarrassment. Any time you try to harm someone by those means when what they do is perfectly legal can be considered persecution (I admit you have not harmed anyone physically, yet)

You claim the "swingers" club is illegal. Well, it would seem that the city disagrees with you. The "club" had its variance passed which means that what they do is legal. Therefore by trying to harass them the way you are, you are persecuting them.

Are you not persecuting the homosexuals? Your condemning the churches that accept them. You are condemning the places they go for entertainment.

Are you not persecuting other religion? (Much like Hitler persecuting the Jews for having a different religious belief) No, you haven't murdered anyone, but persecution isn't just about murder. It's about annoying someone due to their belief and you have definitely annoyed some religions.

I will not argue scripture with you because like most cult leaders you will not listen to any type of reason. Your type only can see your own interpretation of the bible and cannot/will not be open to any other interpretation , even when there is scripture to quote that supports that view. I will argue legality issues such as freedom of religion, press, speech. As much as you have the right to gather and free speech, the above places have the right to gather and free speech also.

And since everyone above has done it, I will post a definition too..

Persecute-1: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict;
specifically: to cause to suffering because of belief
2: to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities)

Mr. Vela,
When I said truth must be tested I was referring to the Word of God. Compare it to the Bible. If my opinion or your opinion, or anyone else's for that matter, contradicts the truth of scripture then it is not truth. I was not excluding my own opinion from that. Nowhere have I claimed that either you or Ms. Harder said I was Hitler. I said you were comparing me to Hitler and indeed you were. As I said, we are not trying to shut down all the businesses on our map. We have tried (and succeeded at least temporarily) to shut down the Route 66 Swingers Club. It was an unlicensed sexually oriented business and as as such, was illegally operating. We had nothing to do with what happened to Avenue 10. Although since it was a firetrap, we have no problem with it being shut down. Our map is for prayer. It says so right on the mapping page. It is currently down for renovation. By your comparison of our group and myself to Hitler you are persecuting us. You are attempting to discredit us and that is a form of persecution. However, we answer it but we welcome it. Jesus did not say to live in harmony. Jesus came to save the lost. To die for our sins. To take by spiritual force that which rightfully belongs to God. He said He did not come to bring peace but a sword. I can tell by your posting that you rarely if ever read the Bible. You need to start. Compare what I say to scripture. Want to change my mind? Do it by scripture. Try it. I dare you.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

David H. Grisham Director: Repent Amarillo

First let me say that I thank you for a civil discussion.

Now, having said this I will say that there are a few fallacies you have yet to acknowledge here. The first one is that neither of us made a claim that you were Hitler, nor that Hitler was a Christian. The claim, which may have not been stated clearly enough, was that Hitler believed that he was a Christian and that your group might contain Nazi-like ideology, both of which Ms. Harder and myself have seen after long studies of Nazi Germany. I am in fact a Christian. I believe in God, I believe in Heaven and Hell, I believe that Jesus was our savior. You are making assumptions that we are not Christian, nor believe in Christian ideals and this is making judgments without the facts. Therefore, your statement that I am trying to persecute Christians is a fallacy. Also, in the Bible it states in Matthew 7:1-2 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” And this is something that all of us are, in fact, guilty of and cannot say we are not. Even me. Finally, your statement that “truth must be tested,” does this mean that your “truths” must be tested as well? : Therefore, because you say something does not mean that I, nor Ms. Harder, “respect” your opinions, then that would make your “truth” at the mercy of your own logic, and become fallacies themselves. In summation, we did not call you Hitler, nor are we persecuting Christians, as you have made claim.

Another argument you have yet to fully address is that of the civil rights issue. First off, Ms. Harder does have the right to freedom of speech; as well as, deserves respect for the fact that she was willing to write an article that would get people to listen on both sides of the issue. Also, the main Civil Rights issue that I was discussing specifically was addressing the businesses that you are “opposing.” However, the reason that “Repent Amarillo” is taking so much flak is because people do not see it as only opposing, they see it as attacking these businesses. And in my eyes, I see it as an attack: “(v.) to set upon or work against forcefully,” protest: “(v.) to give manifest expression to objection or disapproval; remonstrate,” rather than just opposing these businesses. Which, once again, brings me to Matt. 7:1-2; why you get to make judgment whether or not these businesses should be open or closed. You asked me in this last comment of whether or not I knew if we had a KKK group in Amarillo, I am actually quite aware of this. As a matter of fact, they held a march in Amarillo within the last few years. Once again, you have made another assumption; I would not applaud you for this, not because I agree with their ideology, because I do not. However, it is the way in which you approach your cause is the reason I would not applaud your effort. Did Martin Luther King act this way? Did Mahatma Gandhi act this way? Mother Teresa? Pope John Paul II? Jesus Christ?

On top of this, why destroy something without understanding it first. There are many instances in history in which we know nothing about cultures or people because the winner obliterated these people and their culture. Why not understand why they believe the way they do first?

In the end, why not have tolerance and love for all peoples on Earth, why can we not live in harmony, as Jesus preached?

Tim Vela

P.S. The definitions inserted above are for clarification purposes only.

Mr. Vela,
I did not attack Ms.Harder. I attacked her opinions. She has every right to say them and I have every right to say they are wrong. Not once did I tell her to shut up or that her rights should be deprived. But just because she has an opinion in no way obligates me to respect it as truth. Truth must be tested. Her opinion, and yours, regarding your comparison of me to Hitler is both laughable and immature. It would be like me saying all liberals are communists. Hitler was not a Christian. Jesus said you will know a tree by its fruit. Hitler's fruit was mass murder. Saying he was Christian did not make it so just because he claimed it. It just made him a liar AND a mass murderer. That should surprise no one. But it obviously fools the gullible. Or perhaps you are not fooled. Perhaps yours and Ms. Harder's claims that Hitler was a Christian is just what it appears to be, simply a contrivance to persecute Christians. As to the civil rights issue, we have just as much right to oppose certain behavior as anyone else. Did you know there was a KKK chapter here in Amarillo? I have not yet been able to pinpoint its exact location but when I do, I will put it on the prayer map as well. I am willing to bet it will meet no objections from you, and if by prayer or by shining a light on it, it should close, you would applaud me. But they have a right to say what they say and I have an equal right and a larger obligation by God to oppose it.
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo

Mr. David H. Grisham Director: Repent Amarillo,

I have a few issues about your comment to this article. The first one is your attack on the person who wrote the article. You blatantly disregarded the fact that this was, in fact, an opinion article. Therefore, Ms. Harder is allowed to express the way that she feels about "Repent Amarillo" as long as it is within good taste. This happens to be part of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and on top of this, she is not hurting anyone nor trying to shut "Repent Amarillo" down.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

My second issue with your comment is that you stated that you are not trying to disrespect anyone's civil rights. However your forum states specifically, "God has given Amarillo two victory's in the past couple of days!!!! 1. The swingers club has shut down. 2. Avenue 10 has closed main building! We will continue to pray that these places, Thanks for the support Amarillo!" With this on the table, are you not out to take away people's rights to consensual sex, or their rights to show controversial content without being crucified by your group or anyone else for that matter? Your website is very straightforward; I do not think that anyone can misinterpret its content. If you don't want people attacking your group, then maybe you shouldn't advocate that you are the "Marine Corp of spiritual warfare," this only exacerbates the hatred on both sides of the fence.

Finally, your comment about Hitler. Hitler honestly believed that he was doing the things he did for the Good Lord Almighty. In the following quotes by Hitler himself, he alludes to the fact that he is a pledged Christian.

"What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator."

"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time."

In multiple speeches during his reign, he mentions God repeatedly. If this doesn’t show that he believed himself to be a Christian, then what else would? If you feel that he was not a Christian, then aren't there many people who proclaim Christianity, but do not actually live the Christian life? Does the Bible not say in Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Does this not mean ALL, even you, me and everyone else. Are you lying to the public? Because if you are, do you have something to hide? I don't.

Tim Vela

P.S. Protest- (v.) to give manifest expression to objection or disapproval; remonstrate.

So you have given up on the AGN site and moved to the WT paper, Grisham?

I have been waiting on answers to my last few comments for several weeks now. This reporter is right though, your thoughts echo Hitler. Hitler in his mind was trying to do something for god, much as you are, with threats and calls to arms. It would seem to me that you are attempting to form the perfect religion. You have forgotten that everyone has the chance and the freedom to worship as they want, and the freedom to interpret the bible the way they want. You want to force everyone into your way of thinking. If you deny that then , you sir, are a liar and your entire website is proof.

I believe that there is a quote in the bible that you may need to read,I believe it says "The meek shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)." If that verse is right, then in my interpretation, you are not being very meek. Especially after you had called the paper and the TV stations to get your face all over the news.

When are you going to learn that you cannot force feed your beliefs down peoples throats, especially through intimidation and threats.

Eva Harder, you are lying about several things in this article. We are not trying to shut down all the businesses on our spiritual map. The map is for prayer. It says so right above the map on the mapping page. Also, the phone number for the District Attorney's office is to make a complaint about the Route 66 Swingers Club, also stated plainly on the website. Nowhere on the site does it advocate disrespect for anyone's civil rights. Did you not read the site? Or did you deliberately misquote it? That is either incompetence or lying. Which is it? We love people. We hate sin. That is biblical. We hate sin because it harms people, whom we love. Like a small child running into the street. We love the child but hate the action because of the potential harm to the child. Ms. Harder, tell the truth. Hitler was not doing anything for God. He was a liar. Those who lie have something to hide. From the deaths of 6 million Jews we know what Hitler was hiding. What are you hiding?
David H. Grisham
Director: Repent Amarillo